What the...

[theVirtuoso]

Well, personally, I have never really been into all this philosophy and whatnot, but I had the wierdest experience a few nights ago.

You see people, and I am sure many on these forums are like this, that believe life is simply and illusion or dream created by our own minds.

Now I thought these people were a little twisted until it happened.

I was lying down, about to fall asleep. I had the wierdest feeling, my body felt weightless, as though I was floating. I was completely sober at the time, so no drugs are the cause... and then it hit me.

I had this overwhelming feeling of... questions. I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye. I was so intrigued I had to do something. All these thoughts raced through my mind! I was pretty much stuck between two theories:
1. This is real, we were created by God (althought I do not follow religion, I still believe in god, please do not discuss that in this topic though). This really made me wonder though, why are we here?! you know, the ultimate question. I have never felt the need to know besides at that moment in time
2. This is simply a fake-reality created by my mind. That also made me wonder... what really is... real?

I am confused, but thats life.

Ehh... just needed to type this I suppose, if you have any thoughts, feel free to share.

[blackdahlia515]

you sure you weren't trippin acid? sounds like it to me. weird.

[dirtydingusus]

Originally Posted by theVirtuoso

Well, personally, I have never really been into all this philosophy and whatnot, but I had the wierdest experience a few nights ago.

You see people, and I am sure many on these forums are like this, that believe life is simply and illusion or dream created by our own minds.

Now I thought these people were a little twisted until it happened.

I was lying down, about to fall asleep. I had the wierdest feeling, my body felt weightless, as though I was floating. I was completely sober at the time, so no drugs are the cause... and then it hit me.

I had this overwhelming feeling of... questions. I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye. I was so intrigued I had to do something. All these thoughts raced through my mind! I was pretty much stuck between two theories:
1. This is real, we were created by God (althought I do not follow religion, I still believe in god, please do not discuss that in this topic though). This really made me wonder though, why are we here?! you know, the ultimate question. I have never felt the need to know besides at that moment in time
2. This is simply a fake-reality created by my mind. That also made me wonder... what really is... real?

I am confused, but thats life.

Ehh... just needed to type this I suppose, if you have any thoughts, feel free to share.

all these thoughts are part of the path..


we all travil the path...but noone can realy say were it leads...untill they are there

and by the way the aswer tothat ultimit questgen....is 12

[Digit]

or 42 or 36.

the result seems to vary, given that the ultimate question is undefined.

[MelT]

Originally Posted by theVirtuoso

Well, personally, I have never really been into all this philosophy and whatnot, but I had the wierdest experience a few nights ago.

You see people, and I am sure many on these forums are like this, that believe life is simply and illusion or dream created by our own minds.

Now I thought these people were a little twisted until it happened.

I was lying down, about to fall asleep. I had the wierdest feeling, my body felt weightless, as though I was floating. I was completely sober at the time, so no drugs are the cause... and then it hit me.

I had this overwhelming feeling of... questions. I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye. I was so intrigued I had to do something. All these thoughts raced through my mind! I was pretty much stuck between two theories:

2. This is simply a fake-reality created by my mind. That also made me wonder... what really is... real?

You had a minor 'glimpse' of reality (or the beginnings of one really), as we'd call it in Buddhism. If it had gone further it could well have blossomed into something deeper and proper realisation. The 'way through' reality, and your sensing it as illusory to some extent (or mind made) is key Buddhism/Hinduism. Keep us posted.

MelT

[MelT]

Reading back your post I just realised something that I didn't pick up on.

"I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye."

This is the same feeling you get in a lucid dream. You know that what you're seeing is illusory, and you know too that the way to get past it and back to the real awake world is just through knowing that you know that the dream is unreal. In a couple of the higher forms of meditation this idea is a major part of practise, learning how to see past normal perceptions to reach realisation.

In glimpses, or an experience of enlightenment, it's the same, and it's an important component of them. When it happens you know that what you're seeing of our supposed reality is a fabrication of consciousness, and that it's possible to see past it, if only you knew how. Depending on how deep your experience is, you go from realising/intuiting that it's possible to see past conventional reality to actually doing it. You see both with 'cosmic consciousness' and your own consciousness.

The deeper you go the less you can see of this reality and you eventually see with no awareness of our reality at all, it's just light and you aren't actually you anymore to make any judgement calls about what your old 'you' might be feeling at that second.


If you're going to mess about with this again at any point, don't try too hard. Just relax. Don't keep thinking back to how you think you go there before to help you. Just DO what you did before with no backward reference.

MelT

[Rasta_Man]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia


entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

[MelT]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

Yes, good point to remember when talking about experiences like this, especially when they open with the lines ' I was laying down to go to sleep...' Sleep paralysis is a natural event, but very convincing. Waaayyyyyyy, different creature to a glimpse or realisation though. This is such a complex thing to try and explain why they are different - and why anyone looking in from the outside should believe that. I've been on the other side of the fence, and I argued against these experiences for much of my adult life. I devoted years to trying to disprove my own experience after it happened, because the aim of me trying to reach it in the first place was for that very purpose.

That I was won over has no bearing whatsoever and proves nowt, and never could. I can only say what I can about how these things are viewed from my side as a buddhist*, I'm not hoping to convert anyone with it. If you don't think it's real I'm happy that you've had the good sense to not take anything I say as having any weight at all, it's the only way.

I know why you object to them, and the holes that any of my arguments for them to be real must seem to have; and I'd be foolish to try to defend them. But Hypnagogic state/sleep paralysis? Uhuh.




MelT


*Within most forms of buddhism the idea is to let go of the teachings and not be bound by them and the reality they describe, as that would be pointless. Everything is provisional and open to continual reinterpretation.

[theVirtuoso]

Thanks for the all the help and info guys, I am just gonna let everything happen, I'm not going to force anything.

It really was an amazing experience overall, and I am looking forward to going deeper into this.

[TheRoeBiz]

Well to some extent I would say that both options you gave me are the same.

1. This is real, we were created by God (althought I do not follow religion, I still believe in god, please do not discuss that in this topic though). This really made me wonder though, why are we here?! you know, the ultimate question. I have never felt the need to know besides at that moment in time

From what I understand if god did create us then he did so in his own imagination. Just like we create people in our fantasies and even though we are omnipotent( in our dreams/fantasies) and know we are controlling whats going on, it doesn't really make it any less enjoyable.

Just because god "created" us in the physical world (I'm assuming) doesn't mean he isn't controlling what we do because he still created us from his own 'mind'. If you know everything that's going to happen before it happens and you try to create something, I guess we'd be the result. Which in turn means that god is one man 'sleeping', be it you or me and we are his dreams.

This is what breeds our shared feeling of insignificance. compared to him, we're all just an ordinary dream and each of us are doomed to be snapped out of existence the moment he awakens. There is some good news though, everynight when we sleep, we are god.

I'm so blazed right now, I hope that made some sense.

EDIT: I wonder if my fantasies have dreams.

[TokingToker]

Originally Posted by theVirtuoso

Well, personally, I have never really been into all this philosophy and whatnot, but I had the wierdest experience a few nights ago.

You see people, and I am sure many on these forums are like this, that believe life is simply and illusion or dream created by our own minds.

Now I thought these people were a little twisted until it happened.

I was lying down, about to fall asleep. I had the wierdest feeling, my body felt weightless, as though I was floating. I was completely sober at the time, so no drugs are the cause... and then it hit me.

I had this overwhelming feeling of... questions. I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye. I was so intrigued I had to do something. All these thoughts raced through my mind! I was pretty much stuck between two theories:
1. This is real, we were created by God (althought I do not follow religion, I still believe in god, please do not discuss that in this topic though). This really made me wonder though, why are we here?! you know, the ultimate question. I have never felt the need to know besides at that moment in time
2. This is simply a fake-reality created by my mind. That also made me wonder... what really is... real?

I am confused, but thats life.

Ehh... just needed to type this I suppose, if you have any thoughts, feel free to share.

I do the same shit, I sit there and ponder, is this really real? I was thinking exactly how you were, except the "Why are we here?" I do not believe in anything, I think we were created to enjoy our life, nothing less nothing more.

[Rasta_Man]

I think we are the result of the 4 fundamental forces of physics, of matter, of energy, and most importantly, time.

I don't think we have a purpose. We are beings of life and hurdle mindlessly through space, slowly advancing our technology and advancing as a species.

[MelT]

Originally Posted by theVirtuoso

I had this overwhelming feeling of... questions. I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye. I was so intrigued I had to do something. All these thoughts raced through my mind! I was pretty much stuck between two theories:
1. This is real, we were created by God (althought I do not follow religion, I still believe in god, please do not discuss that in this topic though). This really made me wonder though, why are we here?! you know, the ultimate question. I have never felt the need to know besides at that moment in time
2. This is simply a fake-reality created by my mind. That also made me wonder... what really is... real?

Sorry in advance for the length of the folowing;

I left my original response to this fairly open in the hope that others might have thoughts to share - but now let me just point out the meaningful part of the experience above. Firstly you have to remove all of Virtuoso's later musings about what had happened, these are just personal conclusions based on what he felt. All of us ponder life's mysteries from time to time, and many get weird, meaningless feelings whilst doing it. What counted here was, to anyone reading it(but certainly not to the person experiencing it), simple and without depth: "...I felt as though life was unreal, and that if I could convince myself entirely that all of this was created in my head, that I could end it all in the blink of an eye...." That small twinge is the key - but you have to remember that this feeling is far more than the words that describe it, and it can sound so mundane when reduced to the simple ideas it seems to portray.

The interpretation is where the problems start. Depending on the person experiencing a low level event like this, they could easily reinterpret it to fit in with Islam, Hinduism, Chrstianity, etc.. Go higher up the ladder into full cosmic consciousness though and the content and understanding is so deep that even if you were a devout follower of any religion at the time of having the event, you would certainly leave your previous beliefs behind as inadequate and not entirely true. You see that the 'god' that you experience is far more than the personal or vengeful christian gods, but you also understand how what anyone says about such an experience would seem to support the traditional ideas, though not meaning to. If I said I'd 'found' a timeless, limitless thing that pervaded all of reality and beyond then you can fit that in with any religious ideas you like. But Cosmic Consciousnes has nothing to do with supporting the idea of any god of religion.

Cosmic consciousness is not a conversion, turning you into a born again theist. Far from it. In one account of St Paul's famous event on the road to Damascus he says that what he experienced was 'more than god', something that's echoed continually by other experiencers. Cosmic Consciousness doesn't make anyone religious or even spiritual. You become aware of the true depth of reality, understanding that there is far more here than we can see, but in a real way as a valid extension of this reality, not a supposed heaven or spiritual plane of existence.

This is one of the reasons I'm a bit reticent to tell the full story behind these things here, because no matter how I tell it it would offend beleivers and non-believers alike. For example, Rasta said:

"I think we are the result of the 4 fundamental forces of physics, of matter, of energy, and most importantly, time. I don't think we have a purpose. We are beings of life and hurdle mindlessly through space, slowly advancing our technology and advancing as a species...."


And you might think those ideas would be completely alien to anyone who regarded themselves as having cosmic consciousness, having 'found god' in the usual misinterpretation of the term. But I agree with every word that Rasta says - and so would anyone who had had the same full experience. In the indian Samkhya tradition, which provided the basis for much of today's seemingly theist Hindu beliefs, it was exactly the same. Brahman (the equivalent of god) does not have any hand in the way that events here unfold, there is no divine plan or special purpose to humanity. Reality is a fall of dominoes.

Think of Brahman (and the 'god' in Cosmic Consiousness) as say, a field of energy, where causes and conditions create movements in the energy. Here it looks like a computer, there it's a book or a person; but in reality there is nothing other than the energy itself being made to manifest by random events. Everything is a co-dependant flux, constantly undergoing change and never crystalising into fixed 'things'. Realtiy is just a visible manifestation of a background field, relative, and without time. As such, can there be Karma in the usual sense of the word? Can there be an unfolding destiny for mankind? Can there be a 'god' with intent, when time is as illusory and relative as reality itself? Can there be a 'creation', when in Einstein's block time all future and past exit concurrently? No.

But, if someone has a small experience of the above and is particularly religious, they will try to interpret it to fit in with what they currently believe. They might feel the way that objects seem to appear within what they think of as god, is a sign of His hand in their creation, that He's doing it with intent and purpose. If they experince a glimpse where they don't become reality in an experience, but perceive it as something larger and greater than themselves, looking outwards, then it seems to support the idea of the god of religion. The degrees of experience can cause a lot of confusion. This is why Cosmic Consciousness can be such a hot potato, as it refutes the very religious ideas it's supposed to uphold. No soul or spirit, just a single energy (without intent) manifesting as many.

If anyone wants to dig into these things further, just a couple of things that may help:

1) Cosmic Consciousness is perceiving reality as reality itself and realising that there is just an interdependant flow here which is beyond categorisation of self and other, existent or non-existent.

2) Religious experiences (Theresa of Avilla, etc) contain religous personages and images. In CC's there is no such imagery. The two are so different and yet they're continually lumped together.

3) There is no trance associated with Cosmic Consciousness and it's rarely related even with a state of deep concentration.

4) Many, many people with spiritual axe's to grind or with an eye on becoming the second coming, interpret all kinds of minor experiences as Cosmic Consciousness when it isn't. If anyone talks about 'pereceiving god' it's not a CC - BEING god, it's a CC. However it is possible to gain an awareness of the larger nature of reality (and it's co-dependant illusory nature) from the outside and sense that it's there, which is a lesser glimpse that, whilst it can be powerful and interesting, isn't a CC.

I read a story not too long ago where a supposedly enlightened Zen practitioner talked about his realisation event. Paraphrasing he said that a beam of light from the rising sun struck him in the eyes and suddenly consciousness collapsed and all he saw was light. Not CC, not even enlightenment. Enlightenment and CC's are about gaining vast, instant knowledge, not a moment of empty dumbfoundedness and a light show. Nor is it a bliss state. Blisses are a good sign of progress and nothing in themselves, but you'll hear time and again people who've had one saying 'I felt God's love'...Nope, you had a bliss, and blisses don't mean anything.

On the one hand I want to defend realisation and CC's (the first is a smaller version of the second), but when there are so many people making outrageous claims about tiny experiences, then going on to gain vast amounts of followers and book deals off the back of it, then I have to once more return to my former RastaMan-like self and shout BULLSHIT!

On the other hand, for me at least, there is a real experience behind all of this which provides the very mid point that many thinking religious and atheistic people want to reach in their own philosophies of life. This 'god' is not all powerful, vengeful, doesn't screw around with lives, or guide them. You get to keep your normal, relative ideas about the nature of reality - but at the same time can perhaps also appreciate that what we see is not all that there is, without having to conjour up a god to account for our existence or the importance of mankind. Kind of like a thinking man's Agnosticism.

My apologies again for the tedious length of the above.

MelT

[AK Infinity]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

I think we are the result of the 4 fundamental forces of physics, of matter, of energy, and most importantly, time.

I don't think we have a purpose. We are beings of life and hurdle mindlessly through space, slowly advancing our technology and advancing as a species.

This is all the purpose I'll ever need Rasta!

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by AK Infinity

This is all the purpose I'll ever need Rasta!

Alright, but you gotta share