Masturbation

[runner's high]

Originally Posted by flower_child

I'm pretty sure I already explained that. That's what I kept thinking as I read this post of yours: "Didn't I already explain this?"

You did, but the explanation was totally insufficient. In fact, it was contradictory. You said before Adam and Eve ate the apple of knowledge they could not commit sin--they had a childlike innocence/ignorance and were thus unpunishable. But they were punished by God when they ate the apple. They were given the worst kind of punishment--a spiritual fall from Heaven to Hell. And they hadn't even committed a sin--they couldn't have.

This was your justification:

Originally Posted by flower_child

There are certain things that even a baby knows by instinct. Adam and Eve knew without the knowledge of good and evil (or right and wrong, but I'm thinking there's a slight difference) that it was wrong to disobey God.

Wha??? So even in a world without Good and Evil, disobedience is Wrong? (So wrong that committing it dooms the human species to Hell?) You're just using the word "wrong" to replace the word "Evil", because the Bible says Evil couldn't exist back then. Nice try, but it doesn't fix the Bible's gaping plot hole.

And no, you didn't answer the other question of mine either. You said God hasn't sinned. Killing is a sin. God has killed. So God has sinned.

I proved you wrong but you didn't even acknowledge it. You moved right along as though it hadn't happened and argued the killing was justified. Your argument: God has killed, but it was OK because the Israelites were chosen and the people he killed weren't.

*Pause a moment, flowerchild. I invite you to talk your way out of that one.*

I'm tired of you dodging my questions and then claiming you've answered them. That's called "a lie." And lying is a sin.

[TheRiz]

Flower at no point in this or any other thread did you address the logic on of the website I listed. That site takes the Christian God and proves simply that he is 'impossible,' i.e. he cannot exist logically as he is commonly conceived. You dodge me and runner constantly, I have noticed.

What you need to do is step away from your childhood upbringings and just understand that you have been led to believe this junk, but its ok, I was too. I went through Catholic gradeschool and high school. I however was skeptical and did not just immediatley believe because older people told me to. That's what many people need to do, find out for yourself, not be told what or what not to believe. Look at this. It reminds me of hitler youth camps. This is an atrocity that takes advantage of the ignorance of young kids:

Jesus Camp

I HATE the line where the kid says "we are beginning to become God's army.' His army?? His fucking army? Are you fuckking kidding me.

I will not step back and meditate and 'pray' on the Bible, because I know almost certainly that the Bible is a compilation of crap used to scare people into behaving hundreds of years ago. It's too bad that people are smarter now a days and can debunk these things.

[youngandstupid]

I don't really have much to add at the moment other than, I SUCK at guessing people's gender on this website. I mean absolutely no offense but I had .Vicious. pegged as a guy and Flower_Child pegged as a girl. Damn that's frustrating. My apologies since I've answered according to my suspected gender.

[flower_child]

Yea, just for the record, I'm a guy. I've wanted to make a better ID but you can't change it. Maybe I'll start all over at the city someday.

Anyway, let me do a better job of explaining this Adam and Eve thing. I've been going from memory, and I've strayed a little bit far from the truth. I said that they knew that it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree, but in sitting here and opening to Genesis chapter 3, I see that it's not quite that way.

Satan comes in the form of a serpent to Eve and asks "Did God really say 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Eve replies "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " Satan responds "You will not surely die, For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So Satan first causes Eve to question if God had really said not to eat it to begin with. Then he says that they will not die, which was false, and that in eating it, their eyes would be opened. They would know good and evil.
It's very clear, however, that Eve did know that it was wrong to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden. This isn't a contradiction, this is just what they knew. Is it so hard to believe that God made them capable of knowing it was wrong to disobey his word? Could the fruit of the tree not have simply broadened the right and wrong spectrum a hundred fold?

And yes, I've seen the Jesus camp trailer. And believe or not, it gives me a kind of sick feeling in my stomach. I went to those camps when I was a kid, and I've come to realize that they don't encourage a personal relationship with God. Most of them just have you rely on them to know what's right and wrong. You don't even have to own a Bible as far as they're concerned. You can usually tell by who's talking to you and preaching to you if they're of God or of themselves. Now, that's not to say that there aren't any good camps, because there are. But a lot of them have taken this wrong course that you see in that trailer, and it tends to make me wonder if they're really of God or if they have their own motives.

Either way, that's pretty irrelevent.

As for God being against logic,

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible

Why is a perfect creator God impossible? Personally, I believe that before we were created, he was busy doing something else. We're just the next chapter in his "existance" for lack of a better term. There's no reason for us not to believe that God didn't do anything before he created us.
Just because God created us, doesn't mean it defies the logic behind God. I could have everything completely perfect in my life, nothing better to do whatsoever. Nothing that needs to be done. Perfect equillibrium. You know what I would do if that were the case? I would create. We're made in God's image. We have his nature. Humans feel the need to create. Is it so against logic for God to have the will to create?

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.



What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

Humans were created to be perfect. Humans were given authority even over Angels. But Satan intervened in that and caused us to lose our perfection.

But wait, then why was Satan able to do that. Shouldn't he have been perfect too? Well, that's a little bit beyond my comprehension. But my understanding is that Satan was not happy with his position of being 2nd to God. He wanted to be better than God. Yet, God was commanding him to be under the authority of humans, who Satan saw as infererior. This sparked the rebellion in his free will, and puts us where we are today.

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.



Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.



Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?



The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator

.

Humans can use their free will for evil for the same reason Satan can. But which would you prefer, free will, or slavery? What is the point in God creating us if he has to stay behind the controls of everyone's lives? Why would God create us only to make all our decisions for us?
I know I answered that with another question, but that's my best answer.

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

But we have the choice not to suffer. God's not the one making us suffer, we have the choice. We stand at the fork in the road. The sign says "Left, Eternal Bliss; Right, Eternal Seperation from God" and we are fully capable of going either direction.

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible

The answer is a subject of great controversy no matter what religion you are. No one agrees on it, so there's not a whole lot I can say.

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions

I fully believe that anyone who has honesty never once heard about God or Jesus will not be sent to hell. God is just. The Bible makes it a point that those who perish for their sins know the reason behind their punishment. So for anyone who's never heard the word of God to be sent to hell would be a contradiction of everything taught in the Bible.

I'm out of time for right now. Add whatever you like, and I'll be back to continue to do my best to answer.

[runner's high]

You implied that right and wrong things are obvious, Flower_Child, like trust and obedience. If they are so obvious, people would simply be stupid or insane--not Evil--to follow them. Why would God punish--eternally, in flames--a defect in his own creation. A defect which he knew about from the beginning, when he created us, because you say he knows how it all ends.

How could God--who is perfect--make a stupid creation? God could have created people who still make choices--thus they have free will--but who only make the good (compassion and intelligent) choices. Instead he has given free will AND stupidity, and he PUNISHED us for this stupidity? Which he knew would happen when he created us?

He sounds insane himself. A sadistic toymaker.

Originally Posted by Flower Child

I'm out of time for right now. Add whatever you like, and I'll be back to continue to do my best to answer.

Yes, please address the questions I asked you. You haven't answered one of them (that God has sinned) and you only half-answered the other. You posted so much information it certainly looked like you are answering all the questions, but you're still dodging mine.

[TheRiz]

Originally Posted by flower_child

As for God being against logic,



Why is a perfect creator God impossible? Personally, I believe that before we were created, he was busy doing something else. We're just the next chapter in his "existance" for lack of a better term. There's no reason for us not to believe that God didn't do anything before he created us.
Just because God created us, doesn't mean it defies the logic behind God. I could have everything completely perfect in my life, nothing better to do whatsoever. Nothing that needs to be done. Perfect equillibrium. You know what I would do if that were the case? I would create. We're made in God's image. We have his nature. Humans feel the need to create. Is it so against logic for God to have the will to create?

Uh, yes, because something that is perfect would not have the 'will' to 'create' anything more, it's already perfect. You can't just say 'o well he was busy doing something else.' This is again applying human characteristics to God. How can he be busy doing anything? Wouldn't everything be instantaneous? If God needed to rest after making the earth in 7 days, he is in danger, for he clearly is capable of fatigue and can be beaten.

Originally Posted by flower_child

Humans were created to be perfect. Humans were given authority even over Angels. But Satan intervened in that and caused us to lose our perfection.

But wait, then why was Satan able to do that. Shouldn't he have been perfect too? Well, that's a little bit beyond my comprehension. But my understanding is that Satan was not happy with his position of being 2nd to God. He wanted to be better than God. Yet, God was commanding him to be under the authority of humans, who Satan saw as infererior. This sparked the rebellion in his free will, and puts us where we are today.

Clearly something that knows everything and knows the future would know that the 'perfect' humans he created would eventually turn to the dark side. This is flawed logic. Notice how things are beyond your comprehension...of course they are, it's fiction.

Originally Posted by flower_child

Humans can use their free will for evil for the same reason Satan can. But which would you prefer, free will, or slavery? What is the point in God creating us if he has to stay behind the controls of everyone's lives? Why would God create us only to make all our decisions for us?
I know I answered that with another question, but that's my best answer.

Um well, let's see. I'd rather be a perfectly happy robot (by robot I'm assuming it means incapble of making decisions but still holding emotions) and not mechanical robots (but this is just getting into petty semantics). Don't you understand that this sort of rambling about God being in control of our lives as a problem comes from the need to make things up, because no one can be sure, it's all faith based. These implications are not grounded in any reasoning. The logic which counters it still stands. Why would God, supposedly perfect, even bother with this whole mess if he, all knowing, knows how it will turn out? Imperfection results from perfection. Not possible.

Originally Posted by flower_child

But we have the choice not to suffer. God's not the one making us suffer, we have the choice. We stand at the fork in the road. The sign says "Left, Eternal Bliss; Right, Eternal Seperation from God" and we are fully capable of going either direction.

Some people clearly do not have a choice whether or not they should suffer. Come on now. Again, eternal damnation does not seem to follow for petty 'sins' commited on earth.

In order to rebut the logical attack, you need to use more logic. Faith and the Bible do not allow this. You really cannot win here. You can't use fiction to back up your claims.

[youngandstupid]

Could the fruit of the tree not have simply broadened the right and wrong spectrum a hundred fold?

No, it says they are ignorant of good and evil since they need to eat an apple to know good and evil. I have a tape-recorder next to me, I can tell it not to play what I record. It can then repeat exactly what I told it to anyone who pushes play. That doesn't mean it knows that it is wrong in doing what I told it not to. Basically this argument boils down to me thinking that if you don't know good or evil you can do no good or evil.

And runner's_high just brought up another point that I've pondered, there is no such thing as free will if your choices can be influenced by punishment. Free will denotes it is unrestrained. Possible punishment is a restraint and thus free will with punishment is impossible, IMO. Or rather fear of punishment ruins free will. In that instance Adam & Eve were the only people with true free will since they didn't know they would be punished. She knew she would die and that God told her not to but, she did not know either was a bad thing.

[flower_child]

Runner's high, I honestly do not see how I am avoiding your questions.

Do I need to put them in quotations for you to understand better?

Do you even read my posts?

There's nothing else I can say. I've answered everything as best I can. Maybe in a little while something will go off in my head and I'll come back and post, but none of you accept anything I say. You just repeat your questions.
The post right above runner's high answers at least 3/4 of what he asked. I think 100% but I may have missed something. But there's really nothing else I can say. Like I said, if something comes to mind, then I'll be back. But until then, what can I say?

[urgr8estfear]

This thread started REALLY FUNNY I couldn't stop laughing but now after 4 pages I'm all serious and shit because.....

You guy bore me with 3 pages of God exists and he is perfect or not discussions.
Can't we just smoke some pot and enjoy the miracle of life on this planet?
Regardless of how it came to be?

+rep to thread starter : runner's high
You made me laugh so hard!

[TheRiz]

The second someone mentions God shit gets out of hand, that's how it works here.

[flower_child]

As long as I'm thinking about it, Runner's high, it's not very cool of you to accuse me of dodging your questions. I come in this thread and there are at least three different blades with a few questions each, and an entire website that I'm faced with. I go through and answer what I can keep track of. Sometimes I forget about the other questions. If I missed any of yours, please bring my attention back to them. But don't accuse me of just plain dodging your questions.

[.ViciouS.]

Originally Posted by youngandstupid

I don't really have much to add at the moment other than, I SUCK at guessing people's gender on this website. I mean absolutely no offense but I had .Vicious. pegged as a guy and Flower_Child pegged as a girl. Damn that's frustrating. My apologies since I've answered according to my suspected gender.

I am a guy hahaha, I don't know why people think i'm a girl, other than the fact that I had a korean (woman) popstar as my avatar a while back, but now my avatar is permanently stuck as the other vicious in the forum. It's funny because when I had that avatar, people were IMing me thinking I was a girl and trying to hit on me. It gave me a good laugh.

[designatedtoker]

let he who is without sin bust the first nut.

[youngandstupid]

.ViciouS. baahahahahahahahhaaha. I thought you were until weedseed referred to you as "she" in the dizzy thread (I think), and then I saw what I thought was a self-portrait of a chick in you sketches. Man my foot in mouth compared to smart out of mouth ratio is about 1000000:1. My apologies for my mistake.

[.ViciouS.]

lol like i said i have no idea why weed thought i was a chick, maybe he was turned on by the fact that he thought he was arguing with a woman.