Masturbation

[runner's high]

Genocide or not, killing is a sin. God has killed thousands of people (and yes, he has killed entire ethnicities). So God has sinned.

An youngandstupid brings up an interesting point. If Adam and Eve existed before the knowledge of good and evil then they can't be punished for eating an apple. Your argument of childlike innocence defeats itself, flower_child. You can't banish a child to roam the wilderness and curse it's future children for eating an apple. The claim that somehow Adam and Eve committed--and were punished for--Evil before they even had knowledge of it is self-contradictory.

You have some explaining to do. As for reading the Bible, I've read both Genesis and Revelations more than once. That said, I wouldn't waste my time reading the entire Old Testament--no offense, but I have my own life to live. But I encourage you to quote for me any passages you think are relevant.

[Orangecrush]

You guys blew my brain to bits.

I don't want to intrude on this because I am no where near as knowledgeable as I wish I were, but the thing that I always find myself questioning about the Christianity religion itself is God has given us the choice of free will, the power to make our own decisions. But he also knows every decision we are going to make and the path we are going to choose because God has a "plan" for all of us. This has always felt like a huge contradiction for me and one reason why I have not been as firm in my beliefs as before.

But what I am trying to say here is if God did not want Adam and Eve to take the apples in the Garden of Eden, why even give us free will because he would have surely seen that they would have been tempted. And if God has a plan for everyone, why didnt he have Adam and Eve take the other path?

I know that if he had them take the other path, it would not be considered free will. But it really just does not make any sense to me.

[youngandstupid]

I liked your analogy, that's why I kept on going back to it. But when I put on my biblical suit I see no difference between "right and wrong" and "good and evil". I understand that in my modern day understandings of the words that they can be different but as far as the times in which this takes place I'm going to have to say that it was very much the same concept. And you're right one can know an order that was given to them regardless of knowledge of right and wrong but they don't know if disobeying this order is either. It's a concept I can't really wrap my head around since I know of good/evil, at least I think I do, so I can't empathize with not knowing the difference.

Regardless of God's intent in his actions, his actions were that of genocide. Hitler (man I hate Godwinning a thread but it just fits too well in this case) wanted to make Germany clean, and he thought that by showing the triumphs of Germany he was showing how strong Germany was because of this cleanliness ie the aryan race is the best (please don't think I agree in any way shape or form I am merely drawing analogies).

G'night flower_child

[youngandstupid]

Orangecrush you basically summed up one of the biggest paradoxes in Christianity. People have been trying to understand it for centuries and most likely mellenmia. I too can't figure it out, which is one of my biggest probs with Christianity. I think the best answer that's been created, as far as succintness goes, is "God works in mysterious ways". That doesn't really cut it for me though but meh, to each their own.

[TheRiz]

Flower I will once again divert your attention to this website, which you have failed to counter. Simple logic defeating a Christian God. If Satan created Sin, who created Satan? God I guess, thus apparently everything and anything ultimately associated within Sin comes back to God. It really sucks to be on the irrational end of this argument.

[Orangecrush]

Riz, that is an ok point, but it goes back to my previous post. If God knew that this was going to happen, why didn't he do something to prevent it?

You have to think about it in rational terms. Try comparing God creating Satan to a parent giving birth to a child. You raise that child to follow in your beliefs and hopefully follow your path and eventually end up with whatever is best for them, but somewhere along the line, the child begins to form their own ideals. Do you think when a child is born a parents first thought is, I want to raise my boy to be a murderer of millions.(while i'm sure there may have been some people that have done this throughout history, I'm just making a generlization here)

You have to remember that God gave us free will, so he couldn't do anything about the decisions Satan has made. So in a way, yes, God indirectly created sin, but I do not think we will ever know if God wanted sin created or not. Like I said in my earlier post, if God knew that all of this was going to happen, why didn't he make it so it wouldnt? I have no idea. Does it make any sense? None whatsoever, atleast to me.

[Elem3nt17]

Originally Posted by flower_child

Hmm...are you sure masturbation is the best thing to base a belief in God upon?

Let's say that God does indeed look like any other man. Let's go even further to say that he does, indeed, have a penis. How does that mean that he masturbates and therefore all God-based religion is wrong?

For one thing, there are plenty of men out there who simply don't masturbate. Even so, masturbation is the result of lust. Lust is a sin, and God is not bound by sin. He does not partake in sinful acts. Sin and God have no relationship whatsoever. Therefore, even if God was a normal man just like you and I, He'd be one that doesn't masturbate.

Hahaha whatever man told you they didnt masturbate is a fucking liar, unless he gets laid more than any man should. 99 percent of men admit to it, the other 1 percent are a bunch of liars.

[.ViciouS.]

lol shit about God always ends up in a debate, it's fucking sad

[youngandstupid]

Originally Posted by Orangecrush

Riz, that is an ok point, but it goes back to my previous post. If God knew that this was going to happen, why didn't he do something to prevent it?

You have to think about it in rational terms. Try comparing God creating Satan to a parent giving birth to a child. You raise that child to follow in your beliefs and hopefully follow your path and eventually end up with whatever is best for them, but somewhere along the line, the child begins to form their own ideals. Do you think when a child is born a parents first thought is, I want to raise my boy to be a murderer of millions.(while i'm sure there may have been some people that have done this throughout history, I'm just making a generlization here)

You have to remember that God gave us free will, so he couldn't do anything about the decisions Satan has made. So in a way, yes, God indirectly created sin, but I do not think we will ever know if God wanted sin created or not. Like I said in my earlier post, if God knew that all of this was going to happen, why didn't he make it so it wouldnt? I have no idea. Does it make any sense? None whatsoever, atleast to me.

It makes sense but it begs the question, why would God create something he knew would become evil and would eventually lead to the damning of billions of souls? If Hitler's mother knew (100% positive no ifs ands or buts, just knew) what he would grow up to do in terms of murdering millions, and she still "created" him wouldn't she be evil? Although I think Vicious, in another thread, had a pretty good answer and that is there can't be good without evil, light without dark, pleasure without pain, ect. Sorry if I missed your point Vicious or I'm misquoting you. I think that concept makes a decent amount of sense. In order for people to appreciate feeling good, love, and truth they must know evil, hate, and deceit.

[runner's high]

Yeah... the point of this thread was to

(1) Maybe be funny and to
(2) Draw attention to the fact that, if the Bible's God exists, there's no way it's a guy.

The second point has clearly failed because we're all still calling God a "he".

We must all be sexists.

[chronictoker]

Anybody seen 'Dogma' . Probably my favorite Kevin Smith production...

Oh, and this is completely off topic. But I had this dream last night. I was in my church. But I was partying. Like with about 10-15 ppl, in like one of the rooms in the back of the church. An old friend that also used to go to church with me, I used to buy coke from him. Anyways he and a bunch of his buddies from IU there, and I bet one of them that I could bong 10 beers or something. And then I was in the congregation in worship, and I smoked a cigarette, and also yelled some obscenities. Then the congregation was trying to get us all locked up for like vandalism or something. And I was all, like, "but we were just worshipping god", or something like arguing with them. It was pretty crazy. Hmm, wow...

[TheRiz]

Originally Posted by Orangecrush

Riz, that is an ok point, but it goes back to my previous post. If God knew that this was going to happen, why didn't he do something to prevent it?

You have to think about it in rational terms. Try comparing God creating Satan to a parent giving birth to a child. You raise that child to follow in your beliefs and hopefully follow your path and eventually end up with whatever is best for them, but somewhere along the line, the child begins to form their own ideals. Do you think when a child is born a parents first thought is, I want to raise my boy to be a murderer of millions.(while i'm sure there may have been some people that have done this throughout history, I'm just making a generlization here)

You have to remember that God gave us free will, so he couldn't do anything about the decisions Satan has made. So in a way, yes, God indirectly created sin, but I do not think we will ever know if God wanted sin created or not. Like I said in my earlier post, if God knew that all of this was going to happen, why didn't he make it so it wouldnt? I have no idea. Does it make any sense? None whatsoever, atleast to me.

The real point of this my friend is to show that God can't be perfect because imperfection came from him (or so it can only be inferred). The whole Satan rebelling thing is fiction. Seriously. Someone tried to make a story out of this but didn't fully understand the logical fallacies associated with it.

There is no such thing as 'free will.' That is an excuse people make because they try to explain why people choose 'evil behaviors.' I am so sick of talking about this. There is NO SUCH THING AS 'SIN.' Half the things considered to be sins are necessary instinctual habits built into us as biological animals. Is God so high and mighty he needs to regulate what we do in life? "Sinning' comes from Biblical stories designed to get people to conform and scare them into obediance. Nuff said.

[Orangecrush]

Lol to everyone that keeps saying this is a pointless thread, why do you even read it then? Yes I saw the humor in thread, but it is a discussion inwhich some people are actually interested in what is being said.

The issue of free will has plagued my mind for so long now. And you guys have provided me with GREAT explanations of your opinions on it. Riz, you put it into the simplest terms for me, but I guess when I think of religion in terms of a global sense, I want to think there is so much to it than just that. There may not be, but I think to give people a sense of hope that there is something greater out there, you have to want to believe that it is something more than just saying free will is just a way to explain evil behaviors.

But I agree, to this day, no one has been able to explain free will to me in a way that made me understand my faith or religious beliefs better. Your explanation was probably the best for me.

Flower_child, as someone that I have seen to be very knowledgeable on the Bible, I would really like to see what your opinion on everything is.

[flower_child]

Originally Posted by runner's high

Genocide or not, killing is a sin. God has killed thousands of people (and yes, he has killed entire ethnicities). So God has sinned.

An youngandstupid brings up an interesting point. If Adam and Eve existed before the knowledge of good and evil then they can't be punished for eating an apple. Your argument of childlike innocence defeats itself, flower_child. You can't banish a child to roam the wilderness and curse it's future children for eating an apple. The claim that somehow Adam and Eve committed--and were punished for--Evil before they even had knowledge of it is self-contradictory.

You have some explaining to do. As for reading the Bible, I've read both Genesis and Revelations more than once. That said, I wouldn't waste my time reading the entire Old Testament--no offense, but I have my own life to live. But I encourage you to quote for me any passages you think are relevant.

I'm pretty sure I already explained that. That's what I kept thinking as I read this post of yours: "Didn't I already explain this?"

And I don't know how you think reading Genesis and Revalations helps you in anyway. I said you need to read the whole Torah, not the first and last books of the Bible. If you wouldn't "waste your time" reading at least 4 more books of the old testament, than you have no right to use scripture for it against God. I don't know that you specifically have, but I've seen several scripture quotes from there coming up. I've already stated that you have to read at least Exodus-Deuteronomy to understand, since you've already read Genesis.
You encourage me to quote any passage I think is relevant, but I simply can't sit here and type up the whole Torah, so you need to go read it yourself. It would be about the same anyway.

Seriously, Runner's High, I think you didn't even read my post because you just repeated the statements I had just got done answering.

Riz, God did create Satan. I honestly can't believe you can sit here and argue with me and not know that. Satan rebelled against God, and tempts man into sin because he is against God and does not want man to have eternal life alongside God.
As for that website, in my previous post I explained about half of the arguments that are listed on that website.

In the middle of this, I have to go. I'll be back in a little bit.

[flower_child]

Originally Posted by Elem3nt17

Hahaha whatever man told you they didnt masturbate is a fucking liar, unless he gets laid more than any man should. 99 percent of men admit to it, the other 1 percent are a bunch of liars.

I don't masturbate and that's the God-honest truth, so you're wrong.

If you want me to go and start debunking that website Riz, fine. But before I do, we've already strayed far enough from the topic of this thread. So I'm going to need a go-ahead.

*edit* you know what? I don't know why I even try anymore. I'm going through that website and seeing everything that I've already done my best to explain. I gave you the reason that witches, homosexuals, adulterers, mediums, blasphemers etc were put to death. I've explained slavery in the context of the Bible. Ritual human sacrifice is condemned in the Torah. It specifically says that it is "something that the Lord hates." I don't know what else I can say. You need to read the Bible for yourself before you can use bits and peices of it to prove it wrong. What you're doing is like me taking....I'm at a loss for an analogy, but I'm pretty sure you can see where I was going.

There's nothing I can say that you won't pull one passage of scripture out to contradict. The difference is that I understand the context through reading the Bible, and you pull yours off of some website. Seriously, read the Bible for yourself and actually meditate a bit on what's going on. Better yet, pray for guidance, even if you don't believe. You'll get an answer.