Meditation warning!!

[MelT]

Now that there are a couple of threads about meditation it's maybe a good idea I say this. Never - seriously, never - try to turn awareness off if you're trying to meditate, that's not what it's about. When you're stoned it's not that hard to accidentally turn off consciousness as you're meditating. if you do you'll begin to get a dull feeling in your head, a bit like that sick feeling you get when you've banged your head pretty hard. If you continue, this feeling will grow until you feel very ill. I've had the misfortune to do it to myself three times and more over the last years and it's not pleasant. Some of the effets can last for days, if not weeks. Do not mess with it, seriously.
M

[Digit]

thnx for the warning, though i've never come across this switching off awareness, though i have experienced a diminishing (as well as intense increase) of awareness. there is always more information available to us than we can hold in the moments in our mind, increases in our cognitive(?) capacity, our awareness and consciousness can awaken us to...
so...
much...
more.



thnx again MelT


ps, hehe, just noticed my poor grammar as ever... though though redundancy.

[MelT]

Hi Digit. You really *are* a serious idealist I see you're in Orkney! That's excellent. I'm in Bristol, a friend of mine on holiday from Oz visited Orkney and loved it. She was there last thursday in fact. Serious life though. I bow down to your staying power and belief in a good way of life.

Namaste.

[AndyPL]

I don't think it's really possible to turn your awareness off, but I do get huge headaches whenever I try to meditate (which honestly hasn't been encouraging me much!)

What's up with this?

[RobHecht]

holy fuck! maybe thats why sometimes i can still feel it in my legs 3 days later sometimes. thanks man i'll try to avoid that.

[MelT]

Originally Posted by AndyPL

I don't think it's really possible to turn your awareness off, but I do get huge headaches whenever I try to meditate (which honestly hasn't been encouraging me much!)

What's up with this?

Hi Andy, honestly, it's quite possible to turn awareness off (it's a bad description, but...). I've been meditating for 23 years now and it' surprisingly easy to get into all kinds of states by doing the wrong thing.

Could you tell me exactly what you do when you do meditate?
M

[Maitereya]

awareness off? is that really possilble?, i mean we have to be aware of something, even if it is 'nothing' theres still a focus whether it be breathing or some chakara.

sorry to argue with you but it seems like your completely turning people off from meditation. awareness is a big thing in meditation and you make such a general statement, or i should say you make such a vauge statement. if you could please go more in depth on what you mean.

(note to self later) people not being able to handle enlgihtenment at first glimpse... no one read this ill post on it tomorrow


ps. im a bit wasted face

[MelT]

[quote=Maitereya]awareness off? is that really possilble?, i mean we have to be aware of something, even if it is 'nothing' theres still a focus whether it be breathing or some chakara.

No, not necessarily. What you're talking about is meditation with a focus object. What many people will do to try to meditate is to sit and think of nothing, which is where the problems start. The 'lack of awareness' can be a brief thing lasting a few seconds or longer, but that's really enough to create bad effects. It's very hard to explain without giving an entire rundown on meditational psychology, but it does happen. In one of the forms I used to practise I would regularly black out completely, although because what I was doing was being supported by other practises it wasn't a problem. However, there're also states of awareness/not awareness as you approach the edges of the above that you ARE looking for. This is where you have a vague recollection of self-awareness, but that's all, you can't really say that you're thinking or not thinking.

>>sorry to argue with you

Not at all, I want to make it as clear as possible, it's a valid question. The more the merrier Ask away.

>> but it seems like your completely turning people off from meditation. awareness is a big thing in meditation and you make such a general statement, or i should say you make such a vauge statement. if you could please go more in depth on what you mean.

The effect is only something people will get once they've practised for a little while and start to fool around in ways they shouldn't. You'd need a reasonable focus to do it, but with dope it's more possible. I hope it wont turn anyone off meditation - I would hope knowing that you could crash wouldn't put people off driving Really it's just a warning not to go to far by yourself without some idea of what you're doing.

You are quite right, awareness is what it's all about, so obviously trying to switch ourselves off completely in an effort to escape thought is the wrong way to go. Natural awareness has to remain at all times. It might be focussed to some degree, but it has to be left as much as possible in a natural state. Because even that gentle focussing is still not natural, as you go higher you don't do that kind of meditation, but leave awareness at rest. For example. I practise/stay in 'Rigpa' as much as possible regardless of whether I'm meditating or not. It's a base state of awareness that's naturally clear, lucid and Mindfull, and perfect for exploring within.

As I said in another thread though, the book isn't just about meditation. Also, meditation in the usual sense of shamatha and vipassana are introductory practises, the tools to use in later forms, like Mahamudra.

>>(note to self later) people not being able to handle enlgihtenment at first glimpse... no one read this ill post on it tomorrow

Fear, trepidation, happens a lot to meditators just before a big experience. The sudden realisation that you are actually about to 'go somewhere' and somehow change because of it can be overwhelming.
BTW, Enlightenment will usually take 2 or 3 glimpses and a long period of 'completion' lasting a number of years(usually Dzogchen) to make it mature into a permanent state before it's really called enlightenment. The first stage is 'realisation'.

M

[Digit]

note, hadn't read melt's last post when i wrote this and added bits to make look like i had read the whole thread before hitting the post button.

Originally Posted by MelT

Hi Digit. You really *are* a serious idealist I see you're in Orkney! That's excellent. I'm in Bristol, a friend of mine on holiday from Oz visited Orkney and loved it. She was there last thursday in fact. Serious life though. I bow down to your staying power and belief in a good way of life.

Namaste.

EY!

Namaste!

no namaste smilie. aw.

close enough

anyone coming to orkney for a holiday, gimme a shout, my friends up here and I are quite welcoming to peeps of our ilk, and revel in the new company.

i've been looking into taoism recently (a great book by JC Cooper). way of the mystic, way of the say, the way, ... etc.
so far as "the good life", when you get to it, its really just life. and there is no such thing as "bad life" (or "evil") as is in the dichotomy of our language, simply a lack of understanding, or a surplus of ignorance. the more comprehension, understanding, knowledge of life one cultivates, the more one can live it, and strangely, most of us are almost best equiped for this the moment we're born. any act that some may deem as "evil" is most likely just an unawaredness or ignorance of the nature, indeed, the cyclic nature of the universe, on the part of them that comited such an act. ie, you smack someone out of anger, your only smacking yourself ultimately.


"not being able to handle enlightenment at first glimpse" (sorry i read things i'm not supposed to especially if i'm told i'm not supposed to after i've read it) yeah, kinda like the other end of the same stick from the 'awareness off' issue, i've come across this loads of times when entering "better modes" (lack of better term) and get over excited, the sence of accomplishment causes an imbalance and over stimulation of the reward centers in the brain. but it's ok i suppose. its all part of the learning experience, you were on the "right track", and you know it for next time. ...or it could be overwhelming from fear too.

carefull now, 7 eggs doesn't mean 7 chickens.

i recall reading a number of years ago, a website explaing the path to nirvana, and what one might experience as one gets closer through meditation... the sparks or trails of light that precede entering an imersive light... or something to that effect, and of course, me telling you this is somewhat redundant without the rest of the advice on how it can be achieved. but to stick with the theme of this thread, it is far from a loss of awareness, if anything, more like a transcendance. i am however a layman in such feilds of interest.


for further tangentising & tantalising... the likeness of Brahma, of Nirvana and of the Primordial, though definately having different meanings and roots, any of these three do well to hint at the underlying structure of all that we reside in, and could be worthy of further research, .......as i did when i saw the word "rigpa", which as far as i can tell (though i am getting a little mudled here i admit) a state reccognised with the crown chakra.

BTW, Enlightenment will usually take 2 or 3 glimpses and a long period of 'completion' lasting a number of years(usually Dzogchen) to make it mature into a permanent state before it's really called enlightenment. The first stage is 'realisation'.

very, very interesting.


now i'm off to take advantage of this beautiful sunny day (thnx global warming & weather management) and meditate outside.
and contemplate much.

[MelT]

recall reading a number of years ago, a website explaing the path to nirvana, and what one might experience as one gets closer through meditation... the sparks or trails of light that precede entering an imersive light... or something to that effect, and of course, me telling you this is somewhat redundant without the rest of the advice on how it can be achieved. but to stick with the theme of this thread, it is far from a loss of awareness, if anything, more like a transcendance. i am however a layman in such feilds of interest.

Hope that day went well, it sounds nice up there. Just a quicky (we'll see about that... because I'm quite wrecked. But I became interested in Transcendental Experiences before I got into meditation, I've spent a long time looking at them very seriously and have been lucky enough to experience some things first hand. The basic realisation, the begining of enlightenment is as you say, not a loss of awareness, nor a move into a trance state. Perceptions become enhanced and consciousness becomes 'bigger' (sorry, very much short-hand here) but in very normal way. It's becoming aware of an extension of this reality, not a distant spiritual plane.

In this state, as it can have so many different aspects, the key understanding (to make it a valid glimpse of realisation) is that there is a 'not two-ness' here, there's a fluid reality here with no fixed dimensions that you are not separate from. But you have this experience from the point of view *of* that reality, actually as it. You have your eyes open and see, and know, as it sees and knows.
If your experience contains more aspects of its full nature, you might also feel yourself to be outside of time, or have a point of view completely beyond this Universe, or be without dimensions, or infinite, or understand the nature of life and death and 'self' - or even have all at once. Your experience has become 'truth bearing', enlightenment. You gain an understanding of reality completely beyond words, beyond any kind of expression. And that really is the trouble with them. They are so hard to describe. Not because they're vague, but because there are no words for them. You understand everything you learn perfectly, but voicing it is nearly impossible until you go through 'completion' and gain a vocabulary to talk about them.


It's very hard to put over the authority these experiences have. There's not a question in your mind that what is happening is not 100% real. But there's no oddness about it, no sense of strangeness. It feels familiar, natural. You're seeing as yourself, like somebody who has just woken up from amnesia. You're you again.

As I say I'm serious about these experiences, and I'm pretty objective I would hope. As long as I've looked at them I've also studied things like temporal lobe epilepsy, which is the first thing that's usually trotted out as a cause of them. Not even close in fact, but it sounds convincing from the outside. And ohh...bugger...sorry. I'm raving. I do enjoy this stuff and you all ask interesting questions. I really do enjoy listening to people talk about reality and what it all might be. Say what you like about dope takers, but they are thinkers, imagineers, at least they consider life's deeper questions.

MelT

[Digit]

http://www.psmeditation.com/how.html <- Good advice in brief overview of more modes.

my preference leans towards Zazen & Tratak.

I sometimes find it a challenge to do Vipassana, and have found myself manipulating and changing my breath, rather than letting it be natural and simply witnessing it. though that could be just me when i have an imbalance of the masculine.

I've recently found that an inner mantra does what vipassana does to still the chatter of the mind better without interfering with my natural rythms more easily. though there is a niggle that perhaps its a bit of a cheat, to simply place something in the way of the mind to keep it occupied. looking into mantra and vibration more closely it becomes an intesive tool for focussing the mind, embedding oneself in time, the moving moment, an awareness of VIBRATION.

You're you again.

that to me pretty much sums up the prime importance and motivation behind doing medition. to scrap all that which is not you. we are perfect, it's the crap we pile on ourselves, or rather, have allowed piled upon us that causes the stresses and turmoils and conflicts. so many of the people we encounter often are unaware of this, and collectively pile crap on and coroborate that the crap they piled on themselves is ok, or correct, because its the same crap as piled on the others in the collective. It's amusing (from the possition of having cleared out much crap) that one can be so scared of loosing one's crap. ... much like Captain Kirk in "The Final Frontier" denying himself the opportunity to clear away his burden of inner pain from his past.. "I need my pain". but of course, it's perfectly acceptable, to, see it that way. there is no "right or wrong" really.

If the ultimate truth is conveyed without word...

- a page from Spencer Gaudie's (as yet unfinished) "SCHOOLING INCOMPLETE" book of sketches and concepts.

[MelT]

Hi Digit. You might be interested in Dzogchen practises if you get time to look at them, you have enough background to tackle the practises. Vipassana is good, but as you say, anything which is merely refocussing awareness is that a fairly slow and haphazard method. It's faster in terms of progress along the path to refine your understanding of reality rather than sit in traditional meditation.

Yes, people are very attached to their crap - but I have to say that in my message above I wasn't just talking about getting rid of personal crap, but Samsara too. You move beyond any sense of 'me' and the samsaric illusion and become reality itself beyond all of that.


MelT

[Digit]

that sounds familiar. samasara. i think that happened, but due to stress and perhaps fear, i slowly lost that as it was all a bit much to have going along with the rest of my life and interactions with other people. i was looking into hindu practices at the time, as well as terrence mckenna's timewave theory and king win sequence and iching and astrology from all cultural perspectives and and and . yeah... no wonder some practical taosists teach that "excess" is the only enemy. i took too much too much.

... no wait, i looked up those terms. samsara, very different to my experiences throughout much of 2005. an awareness of the great ripples, the correlations between events in our lives and the events of society hundreds and thousands of years both past and future, and further, to millenia upon millenia, rippling beyond our universe..... and if i had the words for it to make sence you would have them.
though on the topic of samsara, an awareness of this cultivated through contemplation of the unbreaking of energy that makes up matter and its continuum through and through, perhaps an example of learning through osmosis, i suspect shared with some of my friends, allowing stronger bonds, or at least an increase in awareness of the bonds we already had...
existing and comuning with others seems very difficult if a perpetual state of "samsara" is to be due to the habituation of comunication patterns. so conditioned to say "I" in the seperate. and once broken the habbit, it can be picked up too easily in valence from others... oh it is a very big mountain indeed, with many loose rocks.

as for dzogchen:
"The analogy given by Dzogchen masters is that one's nature is like a mirror which reflects with complete openess but is not affected by the reflections, or a crystal ball which takes on the colour of the material on which it is placed without itself being changed." says wikipedia.
.... and reading this makes me say "hmmmmgh" and nod my head very yoda like.

[AndyPL]

Very interesting discussion guys! Sounds like you guys have had some pretty wild experiences with this.

Could you tell me exactly what you do when you do meditate?
M

I do the basic breathing thing. I focus my attention on the air filling my lungs, and the bodily sensations of expansion/retraction associated with breathing.

Lately though, it feels like the second I close my eyes and focus my awareness inward I immediately feel a HUGE pressure around what I assume would be my "third eye". When I stop meditating this pressure dissipates pretty quickly. Any idea what's causing this?

[Digit]

i dunno.

"HUGE pressure" sounds like you find it to be too much. ____?

allow me to share with you a technique for cleansing yer etheric thingymies. chakras. firstly, this works better the more relaxed you are. the more "alpha brainwave" state you can be in the better. get some REALLY tranquil, serene, mellow, ambient music to sooth out any other sounds that could cause distraction. lying on your back or sitting, spine straight is perhaps best. ___
maybe a quick prayer to Raphael (healer), Uriel (psychologist) or Michael (jesus) (or any other you consider your own gaurdian angel) if you like that sort of thing, or a quick smile to connect with the directions of the medicine wheel, East (aah), South (eh), West (eee), North (oh), and Father Sky and Mother Earth, are also valid techniques for getting in a safe place. belief is not a requisit, these things are there for you already anyways regardless of belief, just strengthens connection if you put your mind on it for a bit. just some ways i picked up from other peeps over the years.
now, imagine seven plates running up yer spine. you only need imagine one at a time. 6 maybe 7 inches diameter. and in order, clean them. yep, clean them. as you imagine them, if you see any dirt on them, wipe it off. i personally used to imagine a brilliantly glowing cyanish white cloth that i could charge whenever i thought it wasn't glowing enough, but have recently moved to more modern cleaning tools (squeegies and the like) but it's not important at all, just a mental tool. if the dirt returns, just stay relaxed, and diligently clean it off. if you leave tranquility and try this, you could end up piling more dirt on as these plates reflect your state. sometimes you may find a large clump, or just some dust and specks. lovingly and carefully go through them all, wiping them clean. spend as much time with each as it takes before you can picture the clean plate before moving on to the next one. now, if you come across a chip or crack, throw the plate away into the void, where imediately a new plate shall come, check see it's not broken either. if you're not satisfied, relax, it's ok, just lightly toss it to the void too and get another until you get one that's ok. and a little bit about colour.... red at the base of your spine up through orange, yellow, green (at the heart), sky blue, idigoish royal blue then finally to the richest purple at the tip of your head for the last plate that extends above your head. Fill yourself with a white light shall help free up from any clingingness to stuff you don't want and heal yer whole being.

and if the HUGE pressure continues, take two of these pills twice daily and come back and see me in a week.

just kidding, i'm no doc, and i dunno if thats the right prescription at all, but hey... maybe....