Frustrated w/ DWC + Lucas formula -- what is my issue?

[Help_Needed]

Originally Posted by linedrivr

with this being said, I have found that with the Lucas feeding schedule using GH micro/bloom, I have to add a pinch of epsom salts to the reservoir every couple weeks to keep from having magnesium def

Interesting that you said this. With my current grow I've had to keep my nute solution at the very high limit of what my plants will tolerate or I get cal/mag deficiencies too. I'm currently running at about 1050ppm @ 0.5, which is actually stronger than what Lucas suggests, but that's what my girls seem to need.

if your post above is not a type error, then you are burning your plants. 1340ppms @ .5 conversion is over 2.6EC. You should be under 2.0EC.

Line, the problem is that he's using the 0-8-16 Lucas formula ratio, which is giving him 950ppm@0.5. The PPM then spikes to 1300+ for some reason and the nutes appear to be chealating (sp? lol). If he was starting out at 1340ppm, then I'd agree he was burning his plants, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[linedrivr]

true true.

I wonder if PH up or down is causing his ppms to rise. PH up will also cause your nutes to turn cloudy.

I had a mag def on my 1st grow and went to the site where Lucas still post and asked him why I was having the deficiency using full strength nutes. he told me I shouldnt be having one then I explained I had a full time re-circulating magnetic pump and he said that was causing my problem. He told me I could change out the pump or add a little epsom every now and then. The epsom cured my issue.

If PH up/down isnt causing the ppm spike, do we know what his reservoir temps are?

[Liflow]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the troubleshooting help...

Here are the facts of the last batch (which I had to dump today):

1.5 wks ago mixed it up at 8/16. Was 946 PPM @ .5 and pH 5.5. Perfect.

I topped it off for about a week with just RO water (I test it every time - reads 3-5 PPM) and the PPM climbed to 1050 or so, pH drifted up to 5.8.

For some unknown reason over the last 3-4 days it began to get milky and cloudy and the PPM went up to 1290, pH still at 5.8. During this time, I also started getting little yellow "polkadots" on my leaves. The PPM topped out at 1340 and seemed to stabilize there for the past 2 days while I scratched my head.

Anyway, this cycle has been repeating itself since I started.

Since my nutes are screwed (AGAIN), I dumped them and started over today. Same exact reading every time -- 946 PPM, pH 5.5. It always seems so perfect in the beginning!

This time I removed the recirc pump / second res bucket to simplify my system. Now it's just one bucket. It will make adding and testing the nutes more difficult but I'm just trying to remove variables here...

My temps are actually better now than they were in the beginning...They were approaching 80 deg F and I didn't have enough bubbles at first.... Nutes are now 65-70 and the room is 60-75 deg F.

So, I just came up with a theory here... it seems *possible* that I had a tiny bit of root rot that is gradually turning into some kind of fungal/bacterial "bloom" if I leave the nutes for long enough?

There is some kind of whitish-greyish creamy stuff that kind of collects at the bottom of the buckets the longer they sit. It doesn't seem to have any texture to it and disolves instantly if I try to touch it. Like little clouds hovering just above the bottom of the bucket. I don't know what it is... Nutrient concentration?

By the way, Linedrvr -- Magnesium isn't magnetic... So something else besides your pump must be sucking up your magnesium. (Maybe the plants need more than the GH Micro is providing at the Lucas levels?)

[linedrivr]

lol...your prob right. I just went with what was suggested. A little epsom cured my issues.

your issues are very puzzling.

Lucas is posting today. You could go over there and give him a brief rundown of your situation and see if he has an answer for you.

let me know if you need the site info and i will PM it to you.

Regards,
linedrivr

[Liflow]

Thanks for all the help... My plant's condition hasn't worsened since I removed the second bucket.

The nutes SEEM to have stabilized, unfortunately my pH meter died (cheap POS) but the PPM hasn't started rising, it's actually been going down now... (Recommendations?)

Unfortunately my plant sustained considerable damage. I'm 32 days into flower and have some pretty nice looking flowers but the leaves are thoroughly destroyed. I think at least half of them will fall off within a week or so.

What's the best thing to do now?

1. Just let her finish.
2. Harvest early and reveg.

Anything else?

Thanks again...

[brokencage]

the problem is easy.your res size is to small.You start out with the proper ppms but as water evaporates it spikes.with a larger res you will not have that problem as a gallon evaporated out of ten gallons wont have the same efect as a gallon evaporated out of only two.

Bubbler principles *written by Lucas*

Due to the large number of folks who claim they have found bubblers difficult and troublesome, I would like to try and address some of the reasons they dont love the initial experience. There are many ways to screw up a bubbler grow. Tops on the list is using too small a nute volume, which most folks in a bucket experience.
The problem with buckets, besides having to lift the lid off to change nutes, is that the amount of nutes is so small that evaporating a single gallon out of it, which can happen in one day under 250watts, will cause significant nute overconcentration. This will also create large pH swings. Also, with such a small volume of nutes, you will need to change out the whole mix very frequently, which many folks wont do because it is such a pain to lift the lid off the bucket. Then they will have pH problems, root rot problems, and plant health problems.

Another problem with buckets is the nute temperature can more easily rise too high, which also causes root rot. Another problem with buckets is light goes through them, causing algae growth, which can lead to nute and root problems. Another problem with buckets is you usually need more than one, which means lots of maintenance work.

Here is my humble contribution to what I think it takes to succeed in a bubbler grow:

First, use a tub that is large enough to delay the need for a change out of nutes to a 10-14 day interval. This will also mean your daily water loss will not be more than 10% of the total nute volume, which means your pH will remain in a safe range (5.3 to 6.3), and your tds will not go too high.

Next, use a nute strategy that involves topping only with water, instead of constantly mixing and adding fresh nutes for the topping solution. I suggest General Hydro nutes at 0grow-8micro-16bloom in milliliters per gallon as the mix for established, 12" tall clones with well developed root systems. For smaller plants and newly rooted clones I suggest 0-5-10.

If you use this system you MUST replace the entire nute mix once you have added an equal volume of water to the tub. So if you are adding 1 gallon per day to a 10 gallon tub, you replace everything after 10 days and start with a fresh batch of nutes.

To prevent algae growth, either use a non-transparent tub, or put a black garbage bag, or black plastic over it.

Here are my recommended nute volume guidelines. For every 50watts of light, provide 2-3 gallons of res. So for a 250w light you want a 10-15 gallon tub.

For every 10 gallons of res, use 2-3 watts of airpump, and use a long stone, not a small one, and not a plastic one. So for a 250w light a 3watt airpump is sufficient. The only source of potential leak problems is if your airline comes off your airpump, and hangs below the water level outside the tub, so be sure it is well attached, use tape if necessary, or an antisiphon fitting. To keep the airpump quiet, hang it from a string, and the pump itself should be higher than the water line, again to eliminate the possibility of syphoning water out of the tub. One of the great things about bubblers is that a pump failure will not kill the plants, because the roots are always wet.

Use only one res per light, so you dont have multiple reservoirs to maintain. Use multiple plants per container, instead of separate containers per plant.

Use an aquarium water pump to drain your tub, so you dont have to lift the lid off the tub and move the plants. Tubs full of water get very heavy at 8 pounds per gallon.

I hope this helps new folks get off to a good start, and folks who have had problems to solve their problems. Bubblers can be very easy to maintain, and can produce very healthy plants. Also, bubblers are very easy to build, using wall mart parts, and do not take up as much height as ebb and flow systems, and do not have any plumbing that can leak.

Lucas

[brokencage]

Just wanted to add I have used the lucas formula with great sucsess its incredibly easy and cheap!!! I shudder to think of the cost of using something like advanced nutrients and flushing them down the drain evry week or two.AKK! You can see pics of my latest grow here https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/sh...?t=3789&page=5

[Liflow]

Originally Posted by brokencage

the problem is easy.your res size is to small.

Hmm. Yeah, I know what you're saying but if you read the whole post you see that I was topping off with RO water every day.

But it is interesting about the res size recommendations from Lucas. Even though I've read the exact post you quoted, I had glossed over this part:

For every 50watts of light, provide 2-3 gallons of res.

So...Lucas recommends 16-24 gallons of res for a 400watt HPS. Just guessing here but I'd assume that's to simplify maintenance...

Lately I've been having to add 2-3 quarts of water daily. Hopefully that's not too much trauma to the plant... I'm using Rumpleforeskin-style buckets.

Some quick math here...

950ppm@.5 * (3.5gal / 2.75gal) = 1209ppm@.5

Ouch... 3 quarts low = EC 2.4!!

Did I calculate that right?? I may have created an entirely new problem by removing the second bucket...!!

[brokencage]

dosent rumple use a separate res, and keep the buckets circulating?ill have to check his grow again.but id at least try to make some kind of auto topper so the solution dont lose more than a quart before being toped with plain ro water.iv never done a buble bucket but it shouldn't be to hard to figure something out.keep us up to date Id like to see how this works out for you.

[Rumpleforeskin]

I had a few issues with Lucas the first few cycles. So I only use the very basics of his formula. No need to check EC doing it the way I have listed below:
General Hydroponics Flora Series Feeding Strategy - Lucas Formula

G-M-B (Grow-Micro-Bloom)
0-5-10 - For Vegetative cycle (24/0)
0-8-16 - For Flowering cycle (12/12)

The numbers above indicate the number of milliliters (ml/cc) of Flora Grow, Micro or Bloom formulas that I use in one gallon (US Liquid) of nutrients.

You will notice I dont use any of the Flora “Grow” formula, do not need to, the Flora "Micro" provides plenty of Nitrogen.

1. Top off the reservoir daily using a pH corrected water solution as required to maintain full reservoir level. After adding back an amount of water equal to the amount of your reservoir capacity you should change the reservoir and put in fresh solution.

This is as far as I go with his system. It can be a bit more work with draining every other week or so. But I had it with the wide swings of EC and over feeding.

BTW brokencage, if our friend here followed my bucket build, then he has drain valves installed in each bucket. The light proofing is ultra important. I tape mine up and stick a high power spot lamp in mine and turn the lights off. I always have to seal all kinds of leaks of light. My nutrient water became kinda rank a few times towards the end of my two week nutrient cycle. I installed a cheap inline filter to my pond pump, and I recirc my buckets every time I check on the plants. This helped 1000%, the nutrients are very clear and it even cleans out leaf chips that fall in while changing the nutrient.


I got the filters for dirt and rust.
they are like six bucks and wont change your PPM


See if you can spot the filter.




Best of luck, R.

[Liflow]

Hey Rumple, thanks for the reply...

What pH is the "ph corrected solution"? I guess I'm using a slightly different version... I'm adding pure RO water all week and then adding nutrients weekly... But so far I've had to dump my nutrients somewhere after 1-2 weeks for a variety of different reasons (rank smell being one of them).

I was under the impression based on reading the Lucas thread that this was the most up-to-date way of doing it...may need to go back and read it again.

I was very careful with the light-proofing and actually also put mylar over the Hydroton too. I tested them w/ a CFL.

Thanks for the tip on the filter too, I forgot about that...

So far the refill seems to be doing okay but the plant has been devastated by the last few weeks of my learning experience. She looks very sad...

[Rumpleforeskin]

I shoot for 6.0pH. I let it drop to 5.7 before correcting it. Use RO water at around 6.

I tried all that add-back and stuff. My way is pretty simple and wont over fert. People think I am nutz for dumbing every 14 days. Good bud might take a little work is what I tell them.

Dump your shit out and try it my way the rest of your grow. See if it's worth it.

[brokencage]

Id try it rumples way!!!I dont ever dump unless somthing go's wrong.but then I have a 60 gallon res and grow in large bucket ebb and flow.its not that Im lazzy or to cheap to change out my res I realy just dont need to.
my current grow.2 months from seed no res change entire grow.
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[Rumpleforeskin]

If I had a 60 gallon reservoir, I would not want to ever dump it as well. Would find a plan-B

But most of us have small grows with little or no reservoir. Dumping is a pain but not that big of a deal. Sure would be nice though.

[ninfan77]

5.5 is a lil low on the ph side for your dwc setup. You really should aim for 5.8-6.0. And yes, those nute levels are nuts at 1300 +

many many strains don't tolerate that, and the addition of nutes after you've added some water compounds the problem.

Start w/ a new bucket, mix the nutes in, and leave it sit for a day to stabilize, then swap the plant into it.