Yellowing, spotting, slow growth and general plant sickness - Please help!

[dunumptanum]

Hi guys,

I’m a long time forum lurker, first time poster! I was wondering if I could get some expert advice on a problem I am having with my babies. First off, I will give you an explanation of my setup and environment, then I have pictures and descriptions of the problems I am facing.

I started 2x Northern Lights #5 seedlings in grodan rockwool cubes. Both seeds sprouted on day 5, and had tiny roots showing from the bottoms of the cubes on day 7. At the end of day 7 I transplanted both cubes into their new homes - a 1 gallon pot each, filled with a well mixed 50/50 blend of "Dutch Treat" potting soil and "Dutch Treat" perlite, mixed with 2 tablespoons of "Evergro" dolomite lime per gallon of soil. A 1 inch layer of perlite was placed at the bottoms of the pots for drainage.

The seedlings are in a 2 chamber, home made stealth grow cabinet under CFL lighting (3x 30w cool white for the veg chamber, 6x 42w warm white for the flowering chamber). They have plenty of ventilation (passive intakes, fan and carbon scrubber outtakes) and internal fans for air movement. Humidity seems to be quite stable, fluctuating between 40/50/60% RH (depending on when I last watered). Temperatures get down to around 20 degrees during the night cycle, and up to around 27 degrees during the day cycle (brief spikes to 31, rarely though).

The veg chamber is set for an 18/6 day/night cycle, and the flowering chamber is set for 12/12. The flowering chamber is currently not in use, although the temps generally rise by a couple of degrees if it is switched on.

I have Pure Blend Pro "Grow" vegetation nutes and Pure Blend Pro "Soil Bloom" flowering nutes. I also have "Thrive Alive" B-1 Organic plant tonic, "Grotek" PH Up and Down as well as Epsom Salts/Bath Crystals and Hydrogen Peroxide from my local pharmacy.

I have a digital PH meter, a digital EC/TDS meter (for measuring PPM's of nutes), and a 10ml syringe that I use for precise measuring of nutes and additives. All nutes are mixed and measured/remeasured before use, and I aim to mix all water, nutes etc to a PH of 6.8 (or as close as I can get).

I have a high quality spray bottle for plant misting and foliar feeding, and a smaller water bottle with several holes poked in the lid that I use as a watering can, which gives a nice gentle dripping flow (and allows for precise and measurable waterings).

I get all my water from the tap (except for seed germination, where I use distilled). The tap water quality is really good here, with a PH of 7.0 and around 18PPM consistently. I have several 1 gallon/4 Litre jugs that I fill with water, and then leave with the caps off for several days to allow the chlorine etc to evaporate and the water to reach room temperature.


I keep a daily log of everything I do in the cab, such as feeding, training and observations.



Ok, now onto the problem:

As previously stated, I transplanted the seedlings/rockwool cubes on day 7 to their new 1 gallon soil containers. (In retrospect, for my next grow I will almost definitely leave the seedlings in their rockwool cubes for much longer (probably 10 to 14 days next time, instead of 7) to allow their root system to get a little larger.)

The cubes transplanted to the soil well, and the soil did not require watering until the end of day 13. I gently watered them with straight PH balanced water until water began to slowly appear in the drip trays. The seedlings seemed fine and healthy in the days after this.

On day 18 however, I made my first mistake. I decided that the plants needed nutes - I misread hydro grow guide instructions of plants needing nutes after 14 days, and thought that they were soil instructions. I also did not heed peoples warnings of feeding nutes to soil plants before they were 2 weeks old (my babies were only 13 days from sprout at this point). I now know that I should NOT have added nutes until my babies were 3 to 4 weeks old and/or 3 to 4 inches tall.

What I did was mix a nute solution by adding my veg nutes until the mixture reached 75PPM (water had a starting PPM of 16). I did not have any PH down on that particular day, so I had to add some bicarb soda until the PH reached 6.7 (and the PPM reached 84). I watered the plants as per usual with this.

On day 21 I began to realise my mistake. I noticed that both seedlings were showing some minor yellowing on their lower leaves, which I presumed to be the beginnings of nute burn (Which I will assume is correct, unless someone would care to correct me?)

On day 22 I noticed the yellowing was getting worse, so I decided to flush. This is where I made my second mistake. I only used approximately 1 gallon of water per pot when I flushed the soil. I did, however, treat the water with 10ml of Hydrogen Peroxide per gallon of water (I know that this is a low dose, but I didn’t want to further poison my plants by giving them too much. Normal dose for soil is around 20ml to 30ml of h2o2 per gallon of water, correct?).

On day 26 (and after much more reading) I realised that I did not use enough water for my flush on day 22. (I now know that I should use at least 3x the pot volume of water of water when flushing). The plants were still yellowing slowly up the plant, and were starting to develope large brown spots and dead patches on the lower leaves. So I decided to flush again, correctly this time. I PH balanced and prepared the water with 12ml of Hydrogen Peroxide per gallon, and then proceeded to flush the pots with 3 times their volume of water (slowly applied with watering can).

The plants looked sad and sick for the next few days, with definite symptoms of over watering (which is not surprising). The nute burn symptoms seemed to slow down, but so did growth. Both plants seemed to be in shock, but by day 29 they were looking a little better (The yellowing wasn’t spreading as much).

On day 30 I began Low Stress Training.

On day 31, on the advice of a friend I purchased some "Thrive Alive" B1 Supplement and prepared a foliar feed as per the instructions on the pack (although I mixed it at HALF strength, 55PPM). I sprayed the plants, but this caused them to be burnt by the lights and receive leaf bleaching. Doh!

On day 32 I noticed that some of the tips of the leaves were going black. Not much, but just the tiny tip of the leaf blades was very dark. I put it down too a symptom of leaf bleaching from the foliar feed? The other thought I had was that Thrive Alive is made from kelp, and comes in a thick, black stinky solution that dilutes to brown. Maybe the plants had absorbed the kelp product, which made the leaf tips darker?

On day 34 (8 days since the last flush) the soil was finally dry enough for another watering. I mixed 1ml of Thrive Alive per litre of water (approx 50PPM) and watered the plants as usual. I also picked off the dead leaves from both plants (which I now know I shouldn’t have, I should let the leaves drop off themselves),

On day 36 I was still noticing some yellowing a discoloration. So, I mixed a new foliar feed. I added Epsom salts to water until the PPM hit 150, then I added Pure Blend Pro Grow until the PPM hit 310, then I added Thrive alive until the PPM hit 350. I also added 1/4 drop of biodegradable dish soap from the kitchen. I left the mixture to rest, but then after some thought, diluted the whole mix with water until the total PPM was only 300. I sprayed the plants right before the lights were switched off, to ensure I will not have a repeat of the light bleaching damage.

It is now day 37, and I am still not happy with my babies. They are still pale in their lower areas, with weird discolorations on the leaves.



I read somewhere that over watering (caused by my 2x flushing) can sometimes cause a nitrogen lockout, which I am now beginning to think has happened SINCE the nute burn. I have included some pics of the plants with this post. I am hoping that you resident experts will be able to view my setup and grow history, and confirm this, or provide me with another solution?

Or maybe the flushing wasn’t successful, and the plants are still suffering from nute burn (I really, really, think that this is unlikely after 2 flushes!). I am sure that it would make more sense that I washed out the available nutes in the soil?

When viewing the pictures, please remember that the bottom 2 nodes/leaf sets have died and been removed from the plants.

Right now, I am totally stumped. My plan (until corrected) is to start feeding my plants with (low strength) nutes when they are next due for a watering? I was planning on starting at 10% of botanicares recommended dosages (50PPM of grow nutes for the first watering, and then I would increase the strength by 20 to 30 PPM every feeding after that?).

I am also planning on continuing to add Thrive Alive until a week before I start flowering.

Please help!

Thank you in advance!

[sneakers]

I'm not a soil grower but this is my best guess. It seems that like you said, too much water from the 2x flush and general shock from everything but here is what I would do...

I would let the soil dry again and water as usual with just water, no nutes. Do this a couple of times just so the plant can't start to recover. I would discontinue foliar feeding for now as well. When nutes are started be sure and use a real weak strength. Even though they might be old enough for a stronger strength of nutes, remember the growth has probably been stunted some. As soon as they look to be stabilizing then start back with nutes. Let the plants tell you when they need stronger nutes.

You seem to do a lot of extra things to your plants. Many of them you said that you knew you shouldn't have done. Maybe use those instincts and remember that sometimes less is better than more. All of the nutes, epsom salt, supplements and additives, it sounds like maybe your plants are overdosed.

Kinda like stuffing a couple of big macs, 4 or 5 oversized fries into a kids mouth along with 3 super size cokes, topped of with a fried pie and ice cream and wonder why he doesn't look so good and doesn't feel like going outside to play Give that kid a few days to get over being stuffed and he will be fine, just like your plants. Just don't restuff them when they are looking better.

good luck

[Hanky danky]

^^^- Has got it right, you are giving to much love to your plants... Things that kill your plants are to much water, to much nutriens, and to much love.. I know you want them to grow up nice and strong but the thing i have learned is that they are a weed. They will almost grow in spite of you. I also wouldnt do anything with the lst until your plants are better. Anymore stress on those plants and you are going to kill them for sure. Just use water like he said above every couple of days with no nutrients in them until your plants are 100% better, and then continue to use water until you plants look like they need nutrients. They will tell you what they need if you just watch them. And if your not sure what they need, post a picture and people will always help out. They have a better chance of surviving a drought than over watering.

[dunumptanum]

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for your quick replies!

I totally understand what you are saying with regards to the 'over loving'.

But my concern is that although I DID apply nutes WAAAAY to early, it has been 20 days since they were applied and the soil has been flushed and no new nutes added.

I was worried that maybe the plants had developed a deficiency (such as a lack of nitrogen? etc) since my initial mistake of adding nutes too early?

How quick can a plant go from nute burn to nute deficiency?

And with regards to the watering, Im pretty sure that I am not watering too much. The problem lies with the fact that I incorrectly flushed the plants the first time, and had to flush them again several days later. This is the only period in their life that I think they received to much water, other than that I have been watering them every 6 or 7 days (when the soil is dry 2 inches deep).

Upon checking the plants again today, I noticed that the spots have gotten worse, they are rusty brown and they are moving up the plant...

It breaks my heart, it makes me want to put them out of their misery and start over

[Ganja Guerrilla]

since you flushed twice already.......


you need to transplant to fresh soil, run water from the tap over the root ball to remove ALL the soil around the roots

they will show signs of recovery within a week or so

[Smoke King]

Guys-

I am not sure what the problem here is. I havent changed anything in my Hydro system although this morning the edges of the leaves are yellowing and some of the bottom leaves are yellow. Is it a lack of Nitrogen. they are still in VEG as I am waiting to sex them before flowering. They are bag seed. See pics.

Happy Growing

[Ganja Guerrilla]

Smoke King

what are your current PPM's, your plants are showing a potassium def.


it would also be better if you started a new thread of your own, this cross posting can get very confusing

1. hydro, soilless or Soil & brand name of soil ?
2. PH of reservoir solution?
3. PH soil runoff?
4. PH of water?
5. Age of plants?
6. What Fertilizer, dosages, and frequency?
7. lites, wattage & proximity to plants
8. Light cycle. 24/0,, 18/6,, 12/12?
9. In light cycle how long?
10. Room temps & Humidity or reservoir temps

[dunumptanum]

Hey Smoke King, get your own thread! I didnt spent 3 hours compiling photos and information for my post to have you hijack my thread.

Now, back to my problem...

[dunumptanum]

Ok, so today is day 41. I used my finger to check the soil around 1 inch deep in the pots, and it seemed dry. It has been 7 days since my last watering on day 34, when I watered and treated the plants with a mild 50PPM strength dose of my B1 supplement.

So, as recommended, today I watered both plants with 'pure' nute free water - tap water that was held in a jug with the lid off for about 5 days. This allows it to reach room temperature and (hopefully) evaporate any chemicals it holds.

I calibrated my PH meter immediately before testing the plant water. The water measured a PH of 6.8, and my TDS meter gave a reading of 18PPM, nice!

I did not PH balance or add anything to the water.

I gently watered each pot until enough water to PH test with my digital meter (about 150ml?) ran from the bottom of the pot.

I tested the runoff, which had a (normal?) brownish tinge to it. Both pots had a PH of 6.9 each.

The plants showed their normal slight post-watering droop, but after a few hours seemed to look perky and happy. They have only got a few healthy green leaves each, but in the last few days have both turned their main growing tips up to face the light.

I will post pics during the recovery (or demise) over the days to come.

Maybe I will even turn this post into a grow log? Lets see if these plants survive first though!

[dunumptanum]

As stated above, my last watering was on day 41, where I watered with pure water.

Yesterday was day 48, and the plants were due for another watering. The top inch or 2 of soil was dry and the pots were light. So, I watered them again with pure water. I tested the water before feeding the plants, and it had a PH of 6.8. The runoff from the pots also had a PH of 6.8.

I have not been foliar feeding or overloving the plants at all.

I took some more pics and tried to get the same angles as last time, I am still really unhappy with the plants and I dont understand why they are not recovering. As you can tell by the photos, the plants have not grown much and they look terrible. The dead leaves that you see in these new pics are the damaged/yellow leaves from the previous photos, I am letting them fall off naturally. The problem is that the plants are taking sooooo loooong to recover. Also, some of the new growth has some dark discoloration???

What do you guys think? I really appreciate any advice you can give


PS Ganja Guerrilla - Your site is awesome! I am holding off on removing/washing all of the soil from the roots and re-potting the plants in fresh soil... I think that the shock would kill them for sure. Also, I only added (Pure blend Pro) nutes once on day 18, and it was only 75PPM total strength, and the pots were flushed within a week... Could a 3 week old plant in a 1 gallon pot really have an impenetrable rootball that flushing could not reach? Could that dilute concentration of nutes after the amount of flushing, watering and time still be toxic?

[dunumptanum]

Also, a couple of shots of the soil I am using.

I mixed this soil 50/50 with perlite and 2 tablespoons of dolomite lime per gallon of soil. An inch of perlite was added to the bottom of the pots for drainage.

Has anyone had any experience with this soil? From everything that I have read, it seems suitable to me. It is airy, drains well and crumbles easily even when squeezed tightly into a ball.

[dunumptanum]

*BUMP*

No replies?? Somebody? Anybody??


Today I doubled the total amount of passive intakes in my cab. I am hoping that improved airflow will drop the temps a bit, and increase the growth rate.

The temperatures were spiking to the mid 30's, which isnt ideal...

[dunumptanum]

So the temperature in the veg cab seems to have dropped a few degrees on average. Seems to be sitting around the mid to high 20's (approx 27 degrees atm).

I will post some more pics once I receive a reply regarding my previous picture post....

Are the plants recovering? Is everybody certain that the slow growth and dying leaves are nute burn? Could there REALLY still be nutes trapped in the soil despite the diluted application, flushing, pure watering and time passed?