I'm stumped (need help!)

[AugustWest]

wassup all

for the past 3 months since i moved into my new place i've been trying to get a new grow going. I had a few successful grows in the past (see sig).
This time around i can't get passed the seedling stage without my plants stunting badly.
i've tried everything i can think of and read way too many books and still i can't get anything going properly.

first off i'll post a few pics of some of these plants and the ages of them. This is my 4th attempt at this in this location the others were either trashed or put into flower which i'll post pics of as well.

first pic PPP @ 3 weeks from sprout (same seeds & soil i grew very successfully with in the past. Again see sig)


2nd pic NYC Diesel (soma) at 4 weeks



3rd pic: NYC diesel at 10 days. More than likely it will just yellow and grow a set of leaves and just stop for a few weeks.



4th pic: Flower room (1000 watt HPS) Sour Diesel, Island sweet Skunk, "the Church".
the sour diesel vegged for 8 weeks before it finally got about 10 inches tall.. i was able to take a successful clone and just threw it in flower to get whatever bud i can.
The others vegged for about 6 weeks and they were about 8 inches tall when put in flower.


5th pic my last PPP grow at 4 weeks (lol)


so anyway here's what i've done to try and rule out the problems. Also a little info about the conditions and equipment.


veg area:
39x39 grow tent
32 watt 6500K cfl's till they get a real leaf set then 400w MH
temps 75-80 f
humidity 40-60%
soil runoff PH 6.4
slight breeze and good airflow
soil: i've tried the following with different ratios of perlite fox farm "happy frog", "ocean forest" and the regular fox farm potting mix (red bag)

things i've tried:

different containers: red cups, terracota pots, 4" black plastic pots from hydro shop
with and without heat mat
well water, bottled water and tap water from the same town as my last grow (desperate i know)
nutes: ive tried giving a few nothing at all, and a few some grow formula (pure blend pro) after a couple weeks.. none of that worked
i kept some under the cfl's longer than some others and the lighting didn't make a difference.

thanks for reading my long ass post and ANY suggestions are welcome!
thanks,

AW

[amsterdamage]

wow, that's a hard one

I agree they are stunted


Cos it's so hard I'm just going to tell you what I see even though it's obvious and I know you know what you're doing.

If they were my plants I'd turn the fans around right away, you want the fans to take the air away from the plants rather than blowing air onto the plants.

All the media looks dry, this doesn't mean it's a problem as you might have just been going to water them. But (I know I'm stating the obvious) you do have holes in the bottom of the containers don't you (yes I know you do) and you give them a good watering every few days until water starts to come out the holes, then let them dry out a bit for a few days, yes?


What do you spay them with, just water or do you foliar feed?

You're obviously very detail-oriented, you're not giving them too much fertilizer are you?

How high is the light from them, and how reflective is the tent, it doesn't seem shiny on the inside. A shiny tent on the inside would help them by giving them more light.


I just don't get the seedlings, they should be bigger, bushier and just more full of life. If there's no fans directly on them and they're getting sufficient light, water and nutrients, and not too much nutrients either then I'm stumped too. They don't have any root problems do they? Root rot or insects??

If all those things are right, and we know the temperature is right, then I'd foliar feed them and apart from that I'm stumped too.

Sorry man.

[AugustWest]

thanks for replying man..

first off don't assume i know what i'm doing.. if i did i wouldn't be here lol

anyway to answer:

the soil was just about ready for water.. it was dry but the pot was still a little "heavy"
i don't spray them that much, when i do it's just water.
i pretty much water them as you describe and yeah there are proper holes in the cups.
as far as lights i leave the cfl's about 6" away and slowly move them closer as needed, then after the 1st real set of leaves they usually go about 4 feet from the 400W MH light (properly exhausted into the attic).
the tent is VERY reflective even if it wasn't 400 poorly reflected watts is plenty if not too much for seedlings (in my opinion).

as far as nutes i've experimented. Some i give nothing and some i give 1/4 strength to full strength grow formula.. i've tried superthrive as well on a few.

lol i am at such a loss on this one

[AugustWest]

here's some pics of the roots of a 3 week old from it's original container.. there's no substantial rootball at all.




a pic of the stem (purpleish and kind of "woody" stiff like an older plant and not a seedling.





a pic of where the base of the stem and where the root starts.





the roots aren't as slimey as the pictures make them out to be i just rinsed the soil off of them for the picture. They were pretty white and kind of hard.. there weren't any thin silky roots like you see when they're in a pot for 3 weeks.

[amsterdamage]

the roots are in the same state as the tops, somethings stunting the whole plant

I don't see any sign of root rot or insect damage though. The plants just aren't doing anything.


what did you think of the idea of turning the fans around - blow the air away from the plants instead of at them?

Foliar feeding will help them, but only after you've fixed the major problem that's stunting them. When foliar feeding make sure you especially spray the bottom of the leaves as that's where the stomata is, there aren't any openings for the feed to go in on the top of the leaves.

[AugustWest]

the fan isn't really blowing on them.. it's blowing above them at the light just to keep a little airflow at the canopy.
Maybe lack of co2? But how much co2 does a little seedling need? The flowering plants are doing fine in a different section of the same room.
i'll definately give them a light foliar feeding and see what happens..

[Overmind1632]

hmmm are they on 24/0?

if so, try a different light cycle

i feel like my plants grow fast on 18/6

and maybe give it more light?

[AugustWest]

Originally Posted by Overmind1632

hmmm are they on 24/0?

if so, try a different light cycle

i feel like my plants grow fast on 18/6

and maybe give it more light?

they are on 24/0 right now i have tried 18/6 as well but same results
as far as more light i'm thinking the 400w should be cool for 2-4 weeks of veg maybe i'll move it closer and see...
thanx for replying man.. appreciate it.

[ClosetHack]

Ausustwest are you using the same soil every time or have you tried new bags yet? I would think it's the soil, as everything else seems dead on. Usually those soils have more then enough organic nutrient to sustain growth a few weeks in veg, but maybe 1 wasn't mixed properly, and if your using the same bags you may be putting the problem into each pot.

I would try some peat or coir/perilite fed with your pbp and see if you get any growth out a them. If they grow well then it's likely to be one of those bags causing you some problems.

Really it's like all the plants are having this problem.. what is the few things they all have in common? light>soil> anything?

ph seems good. thats a run off test pouring water in soaking the soil good, letting the pot sit a good 15min, pouring a cup more in and catching the run off?

Edit: another thing I notice looking at the pics is it seems your using a hell of a lot nore perlite between these, and the pic of the last grow. Any chance maybe the roots just aren't moist enough long enough? Maybe something with the seeds? Maybe exposed to extreme temps or something during the move? I don't know this is a tricky one but it has to be something they all have in common.

[ClosetHack]

Also when you tried different water sources were they each a separate grow, or did you just try others mid way?

I lived in a place with chlormine in the water once, and had some issues with my plants and fish tanks. It's different from chlorine in that it becomes effective or activated in the presence of carbon. Works better at protecting us from our leaky pipes. But letting the bottles sit for a period of time was not as effective at dissipating it. It becomes effective when it hits soil and fish tanks well carbon like I said LOL. You know if this is a possibility? it's become a lot more common. A couple spoonfuls of your compost soil would activate it and allow it to dissipate out of the water a lot quicker.

[ClosetHack]

Also when you tried different water sources were they each a separate grow, or did you just try others mid way?

I lived in a place with chlormine in the water once, and had some issues with my plants and fish tanks. It's different from chlorine in that it becomes effective or activated in the presence of carbon. Works better at protecting us from our leaky pipes. Least that's how the water company explained it to me. But letting the bottles sit for a period of time was not as effective at dissipating it. You know if this is a possibility? it's become a lot more common. A couple spoonfuls of your compost soil would activate it and allow it to dissipate out of the water a lot quicker.

[sneakers]

We all know you have been growing awhile and are probably considered one of the premier growers on this thread. The only thing different between this grow and your others is your location. My experise is not expertise in anyway at all but I have read a bunch of threads here and this sounds like some of those BRS (bad room syndrome) stories we hear. This can be partly caused by chemicals and fumes released by substrates used in building homes. Things like carpet, linoleum, etc. and they don't always have to be new substrates.

Personally I think I might try starting a plant in a different location just to be sure that BRS is not the problem. You might also try putting some plastic sheeting on the floor and tape it down good around the edges to see if that helps.

[sneakers]

One thing more that I thought of. I have recently had a problem with slow growth too and only recently have gotten it corrected. The only difference between grows is the time of year and strain. Others were last summer and fall. It has gotten a bit cooler since then. My seedlings were growing at a snails pace like yours and once I was able to take cuttings it took weeks for them to start growing after roots were formed and placed into flowering light. In fact I have 2 cuttings, one at about 10" and one about 20" that are getting full of buds and the stretch appears to be slowing down long before I expected it. At first I was blaming the strain and I also blamed a new cabinet that I bought from office depot for the problem. The cabinet may be part of the problem but not all of it.

Cool temps may have been the culprit. I purchased a heat mat to put under my clones. I realized right away that I was once again noticing humidity drops on the top which I haven't been seeing. Roots were taking about 3 weeks to be seen and after placing on the mat I saw roots in 2 of them. Those 2 appear to be growing better now than the others did. Cuttings I have taken appear to be looking better under the humidity cover as well. I am thinking maybe these little ones need this heat just to get a good start and not be so weak looking.

I didn't mention this earlier. I thought for sure that Augustwest has his temps all checked and set right and I can't even tell you what the temps in my cloner are at now. Also I'm not totally sure this problem is corrected and haven't quite gotten to a point as to ask for help but this appears to maybe be the problem.

I am also thinking something else may be contributing to the slowing of the stretch I am now seeing. I accidentally added some GH Kool Bloom to the solution of one of my clones (the 10" clone). As these thick buds started appearing, the stretch slowed but didn't stop. When I noticed how awesome these buds looked in comparison to her big sister's lil buds I thought wow, this stuff works good so I added it to the 20" clone. It seems to have slowed down the stretch on that one too as the buds began to bulk up. That is potentially another problem but has nothing to do with the slow start.

I mentioned this just in case it might help make something click in your mind to help solve your problem like are you seeing humidity drops on your dome.

Look at Augustwest's pics and notice he literally does have a green thumb.

[AugustWest]

Originally Posted by sneakers

We all know you have been growing awhile and are probably considered one of the premier growers on this thread. The only thing different between this grow and your others is your location. My experise is not expertise in anyway at all but I have read a bunch of threads here and this sounds like some of those BRS (bad room syndrome) stories we hear. This can be partly caused by chemicals and fumes released by substrates used in building homes. Things like carpet, linoleum, etc. and they don't always have to be new substrates.

Personally I think I might try starting a plant in a different location just to be sure that BRS is not the problem. You might also try putting some plastic sheeting on the floor and tape it down good around the edges to see if that helps.

thanx for replying man.. funny you mention that because that's what i'm in the process of doing. I have 3 new ones (2 days old) in the bedroom closet and 3 in the tent in the other room. We'll see if it works. The only thing i can think of is that this tent stays pretty humid as opposed to my last location which gave them a chance to dry out a little faster. In other words i'm pretty sure i'm letting them dry properly before watering but they take an awful long time to dry. Sometimes i can go a week and not have to water these seedlings whereas they'd be dry and ready for water in my last spot. Also i took one of those stunted plants from the tent and put it in the closet under the cfl's.
Maybe i'm drowning the roots or something.
All i know is i'm sick of buying buds although it's been really good bud lately lol.

[AugustWest]

Originally Posted by ClosetHack

Also when you tried different water sources were they each a separate grow, or did you just try others mid way?

I lived in a place with chlormine in the water once, and had some issues with my plants and fish tanks. It's different from chlorine in that it becomes effective or activated in the presence of carbon. Works better at protecting us from our leaky pipes. But letting the bottles sit for a period of time was not as effective at dissipating it. It becomes effective when it hits soil and fish tanks well carbon like I said LOL. You know if this is a possibility? it's become a lot more common. A couple spoonfuls of your compost soil would activate it and allow it to dissipate out of the water a lot quicker.

thanx for replying man!
the different water sources were all done at the start of each grow and maintained throuought veg.