Newbie hydro problems w/pics

[Liflow]

Hi everyone. I have been reading here for a while and decided to finally take the plunge and try my hand at growing.

Seems to be going okay so far but the plants always seem to be growing slowly compared to the other pics I see. Now I am getting something that looks like a nitrogen deficiency from what I saw on other pics and just want some confirmation and/or advice.

Here are my details to make it easier. I hope I included everything anyone would need to help.

Strain: White Rhino from seed (marijuana-seeds.nl)
Age: 32 days
Phase: Flowering 12/12 day 2
Technique: DWC in homemade 5-gallon bubblers
Substrate: Hydroton in 6" net pots
Water Temp: 76 deg F
Nutrients: GH Micro/Bloom at 5/10ml per gal (Lucas)
Water: RO plus 3ml/gal H2O2 every 5 days or so (water got stinky a few weeks ago)
TDS: 751 PPM @ .5
pH: 5.5
Lighting: 400w HPS at 18-24"
Ventilation: 440 CFM 6" duct blower on HPS / 16" fan for circulation
Room Temp: 65-75 deg F night to 78-83 deg F day

The PH had risen to 6.0 so I added a bit of PH down this morning to get it back to 5.5.

I know I should have switched the nutrients to 8ml/16ml per Lucas but I don't want to change anything yet until I know what's going on with the plants' health. Or if I should even be at 12/12 yet considering how tiny the plants are.

Anyway, I've attached some pics. Maybe I'm just freaking out over nothing but it does not look good. Or maybe I was too ambitious trying my first grow as with DWC...

The pics are:

1- Plant pic so you can see the small size.
2/3- Closeups of older leaves that are exhibiting problems.
4- New growth (appears healthy to me)

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help me...or tell me I'm just freaking out over nothing...

[Liflow]

Well I did more research and now I'm thinking that maybe it's nutrient burn?

One of the leaves on another plant has small, round, brown "polka-dots". I'll post a pic later if I think of it.

Are these symptoms related? They just look like different issues...

I forgot to mention this when describing my setup but I have all the buckets tied together and a pump to recirculate the nutes. I run the pump about twice a day for 20-30 minutes.

Thanks in advance.

[Liflow]

Pics as promised...

I'm not so sure that the new growth on the middle plant looks ok tho. It's kind of yellowish compared to the other 2. The other symptoms appear to be affecting all 3 of the plants.

Is White Rhino hard to grow or am I just screwing up here?

Thanks in advanced...

For DWC setups, you want your ph a lil higher than what you've set it at. Aim for 5.8-6.0. Some trace elements like Magnesium are locked out below 5.8.

I'm not sure of the spots, some of it looks like light burn or heat stress. Do you mist the plants, how close is the light? Do you mist w/ nutrients?

76 Is a lil warm for the water as well, aim for below 70. Get some water bottles and freeze them.

[Liflow]

Hmm. Frozen water bottles, I didn't think of that. I had come up with this elaborate plan of buying a small window A/C and building a chiller out of it... Uh, yeah. Water bottles will be it.

The light is 18-24" up and the glass is cool to the touch. Plus there is a fan blowing the plants... My hand doesn't feel warm if I put it above the plants. I'll raise it to like 3ft and see what happens.

And I don't mist the plants with anything.

By the way, new growth on the middle plant is even yellower this morning. I'm afraid I'm gonna lose her if I don't figure this out soon... It does seem kinda weird that only 1 of the 3 would be getting yellow new growth tho since the nutes circulate...

[Liflow]

Raised the lights to about 30". This is Day 3 of 12/12, the healthiest plant is already showing female. (Yay!) I hope the sickest one is a male Actually, I take that back... I'd still rather a sick female plant...

This morning: pH 5.7, TDS 699 PPM, res temp 77 deg F

I'm going to freeze some water bottles and try to get the res down closer to 70

Is pH 5.7 close enough or do I need to go to the store and get some pH Up? That would be kinda funny since I just had a conversation in another thread about how I didn't think I needed it...

Thanks for your advice...

[GrowBot]

Originally Posted by ninfan77

For DWC setups, you want your ph a lil higher than what you've set it at. Aim for 5.8-6.0. Some trace elements like Magnesium are locked out below 5.8.

I'm not sure of the spots, some of it looks like light burn or heat stress. Do you mist the plants, how close is the light? Do you mist w/ nutrients?

76 Is a lil warm for the water as well, aim for below 70. Get some water bottles and freeze them.

that's good advice. you said you run the pump a couple times a day, do your buckets have aeration wands or something? 400 watts 18" above your tops is kinda far away...

[Liflow]

Yah, they're 5-gallon bubble buckets. I used 6" ceramic air-stones in each bucket and connected the 3 airlines together with a 3-way manifold to a EcoPlus Eco-2 air pump.

I put a drain at the bottom of each bucket and connected the 3 buckets together to a 2 gallon extra bucket. That's where I put in my nutes and stuff. The 2 gallon bucket then has a water pump that pumps them into the top of all 3 buckets simultaneously. It just recirculates the nutrients and lets me measure and add in one place instead of 3... (And without exposing the roots to light)

So anyway, 18" is too far away? I just raised the light b/c ninfan77 said it looked like heat stress. How far away should it be?

Here's my reflector...it runs very cool w/ a 440 CFM 6" duct blower...
http://www.hidhut.com/catalog/deluxe...ctor-p-65.html

Thanks

[Boss-g]

You should foliar feed in 3-5 day intervals. In this case, I would go with 1/4 strength and mist them every 3-5 days for 2-3 weeks. I would use sea tea, if you can get ahold of it. Even if you don't use nutes, they love a good water spray. It looks like you have a calcium deficiency, but I could be wrong.

Oh, btw, there is evidence that suggests too much wind causes the plant to burn up calcium quickly. The second photo in the first set definately looks like heat, but that must have been from earlier in the grow, no?

[Liflow]

Yeah, could have been from earlier in the grow. Maybe I should clip off the unhealthy leaves since they're just going to die anyway?

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. It seemed that Lucas Formula fit that bill... Would I really have a calcium deficiency with Lucas at 5/10? Maybe I need to juice up my nutes a little more? Since the one thing nobody has suggested is a nute burn... Maybe I should burn em a little...?

And about foliar feeding... Shouldn't I be able to give it everything it needs to be healthy thru the roots? I mean I get that it could be like giving them steroids, but if they're unhealthy why would foliar feeding help? Or should I just mist them w/ water like you said?

I'm really just trying to go w/ KISS approach...but this shit gets complicated quick.

[linedrivr]

Liflow,

nice setup. I have nearly the same recirculating setup using gh micro/bloom for Lucas formula with RO water. I am on my 3rd grow with this setup and thought I would share some similiar experiences I have had with the system. I am currently using 400w air cooled lights as opposed to the 1000w I started out with back in June. I won't go into a book of details of the 1st grow disasters due to all the light ballast failures and leaks I endured. all that is fixed now.

During my 2nd grow I was having plant deficiency issues at first that are similiar to what you are having. I used weak nutes 300 - 700ppms @ .7 and had my lights to far away (24"). I went on another forum and asked Lucas himself and he told me to lower my 400w lights down to 12" or less above the plants with full strength nutes (1330 ppm @ .7 conversion). Once I did this, my plants recovered and finished out great. I have no heat stress whatsoever.

The other thing I admire about the full strength lucas formula is I never have to use ph up or down for ph adjustment. If ph gets to 6.0 or higher, I know its time to topoff feed and if it drifts down to 5.5 or so, they just get RO water for topoff. my ppms hovered from 1150 to 1350 during the week between feedings. I added nute topoff using the addback formula once a week on the same day each week. the rest of the week, they got pure RO for topoff as needed. when the 7th day rolled around and it was time to feed, the ph was usually 6.0-6.2. A few hours after the feed, it would be 5.6-5.8.

hope this helps.

regards!

[Help_Needed]

Lif,

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. You've got exactly the same problem I fought with - nute deficiencies.

First, if you're using the Lucas formula you shouldn't need to foliar feed at all.

Second, it looks like you're got he older version of the Lucas formula. He's updated the recommended feeding strengths. If you're growing under 400w HPS, you should be feeding at 0-8-16, not the 0-5-10 he used to recommend. You want to aim for about 950-1000ppm @ 0.5 conversion - 1300ppm @ 0.7, maybe a touch higher if your plants will tolerate it. I've got my white widows at 1050ppm and they're loving it.

Your pH is good. You're res temps are a touch warm. They're tolerable, but if you can cool them down 3-4 degrees, you'll be golden.

But above all...FEED THEM lol.

[Liflow]

Linedrvr -- THANK YOU for your reply. It's really nice to hear from someone who has a similar setup and had similar problems.

I have a .5 TDS meter so I'll have to convert... (Just found this nice conversion chart http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57971) If I'm reading this right 1330 ppm on yours would be 950 ppm on mine.

I have given them nothing but pure RO all week (did complete change 1 wk ago) except for when I gave them a tiny bit of pH Down b/c I thought that was the problem. I will top next time using the addback formula to get it to 950 and hope for the best. I don't think I put enough pH Down to screw it up...maybe I should use some of my horribly alkaline tap water instead of RO to compensate...(pH was 8.3 / TDS 350 ppm last time I checked!!) Or I guess I could go get some ph Up...

One other thing -- When you were having those problems did your plants seem to be growing kind of slowly? Mine were taking off the first 2-3 weeks and then seemed to almost completely stop growing and started getting these issues...

Anyway, thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it!!! I was starting to get really discouraged...

[Liflow]

Help_Needed -- Thanks for the advice dude! Seems you and Linedrvr are in agreement: MY PLANTS ARE HUNGRY!

You mention a "new" Lucas formula...where could I find this? I've been really gentle with my approach, trying desperately not to OVERfeed them and it appears I ended up starving them instead...oops.

Thanks for your help!

[linedrivr]

one more quick note.

If you are using gh micro / bloom for the lucas formula and not using it at full strength, then in short time (couple weeks) you will start seeing calcium and magnesium deficiencies on your plants. Adding cal-mag or epsom salts will correct the problem temporarily but will screw up your ppm ratios and make it nearly impossible to know if you are truly at the recommended 1330 full strength ppms due to all the other additive ppms in the reservoir.

been there done that!

in addition, adding ph up / down to your reservoir will also screw up your ppm readings. do it enough over a few weeks and a full strength 1330 @ .7 reading might really be only 600-700 in plant usable nutes, the rest would be ph up/down, epsom, cal-mag or whatever else you choose to toss in. one quick remedy usually leads to more issues down the road.

regards!