Animals and Concius Thought

[klizzle]

Originally Posted by remdog

i still disagree, and i do not care about what a pschologist says because how the hell do we know what is goin on in a dogs brain. ...... dogs for example dream, i promise you they do. this is proof against what your saying as a dream is a form of concious thought. i have had 2 puppies, and both have their own unique personalities just and seem to think differently, both were the same breed and same species and both raised around the same people, same family, 1 is clearly smarter than the other, this is part of why i belive you to be wrong.

it is easy to think we "program" our pets, but how can that be true? to what degree? we "program" other humans in the same way do we not?

I have pets too, so I can respect your point of view. However, it's very possible that you treat one puppy different than the other even if they are fairly identical. Either way, it's very tough to say because for the most part there isn't a universal definition for "consciousness". The way I define it is to be able to think, to weigh one outcome against another. I'm not so sure most animals can do that.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by klizzle

I have pets too, so I can respect your point of view. However, it's very possible that you treat one puppy different than the other even if they are fairly identical. Either way, it's very tough to say because for the most part there isn't a universal definition for "consciousness". The way I define it is to be able to think, to weigh one outcome against another. I'm not so sure most animals can do that.

the reason i would say that most if not all animals can do that is when you simply observe them. for example you through your dogs ball, but their happens to be say something it dosent like, maybe a cetain decrative figure of somekind that it would have to pass. even though it has never been harmed by that object before it decides on a route where it will not have to go any where near the object it is scared. this shows an acknowledgement of risk and the thought process of choosing a safer route.

[pavlakos]

Originally Posted by remdog

i disagree. lots of stick insects clearly show consious thought. females of many stick bug species relase a perfume to attract a male mate however if a male takes to long to show up, she will fertilize her self, but as a penelty for doing such 95% of her children will be female, and therefore their overall fitness goes down as males play key roles, just as females. aware of this penelty females stick out as long as possible for a male mate and actuly choose weather they should self fertilize themselvs.

since jellyfish have no brain i may be able to understand that they have no concious thought

lets question something...is it the brain that creates the consious and self awareness or the consious creates the brain and everything else for that matter? im sure jelly fish still think, regardless of how primitive the thought process is, which makes one wonder...no brain? but how? what is the life force if not the brain? i think you get where im going with this.

as for programing like a computer...haha, we too are programmed wouldnt you say? the people around us, their opinions and words, the advertisements, the multi media, and especially whatever is popular, almost already form our personal opinion and thought process and what the outcome will be, whether you like it or not, its true.

[Bluntzilla420]

Think about dogs. They get yelled at or smacked for doing something wrong like pissing in the house, and then they develop the thought pattern to not commit such an act again within the confines of the house. That takes cognitive ability.

[NeOmega]

I believe that most animals have some kind of conscious thought mesh, with clumps of instinct spread throughout. That's just imagery, of course. As humans, our clumps are much smaller in more specific areas, and only become active in certain situations.

I think what you're really looking for is complex emotions and processes. Things like adoration, pity, greed, jealousy, introspection, paranoia... stuff that animals don't usually seem to demonstrate.

Then again, maybe they do, and we just can't tell.

[the roach]

Originally Posted by NeOmega

I think what you're really looking for is complex emotions and processes. Things like greed,paranoia... stuff that animals don't usually seem to demonstrate.

Then again, maybe they do, and we just can't tell.

I have seen cats display greed, contempt, and definitely paranoia.

Maybe it's really more the separation of instinct and complex emotions that we are trying to define?

[remdog]

to best sum p everything ive been sayin.,. humans are animals

[pavlakos]

in that sense every consious being is an animal? would you call an alien an animal? define animal. were all just beings, including the 'animal' kingdom.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by pavlakos

in that sense every consious being is an animal? would you call an alien an animal? define animal. were all just beings, including the 'animal' kingdom.

yea an alien is an animal- just from another planet, unless its life in the form of a plant...