Any one else believe suicide is apart of evolution?

[Swa_Swa]

I was trying to kill some time before work this morning driving around and thought of this concept. Evolution and life is all about bigger, faster, stronger. People who kill them selves are weak and can't handle life so they kill them selves. By doing so they take out certain genes of the gene pool and this benefits evolution. Anyone else agree or care to tear this idea apart.

Of course most animals don't commit suicide but there are some which do it to benefit there existence. Mainly insects it seems like. Just a thought trying to see where it goes out of curiosity.

[seahag]

i dont know. i cant think of animal that doesnt commit suicide in self-defense, other than a homosapien. so i dont really think so, if anything its a product of anti-evolution. in which case, that would make us failures?? haha.

i dont know how suicide of oneself contributes to the evolutional growth of its species, but maybe.

[sirsm0kesal0t]

Only a sentient can commit suicide because only a sentient can decide whether or not they want to live.

[enevitable]

Originally Posted by sirsm0kesal0t

Only a sentient can commit suicide because only a sentient can decide whether or not they want to live.

Actually many philosophers believe that a human can't even consent to their own death.

I.E Kantian

I think this is actually an interesting concept OP, because think of it this way. The ones who commit suicide are usually predisposed to mental diseases, by eliminating these pheno's its a very good example of natural selection

You know what, I'd almost as go as far to say as suicide is a very healthy concept for a society

[Eru_iluvatar]

no, that's stupid. Evolution has not as much to do as being stronger, bigger and better more than it has to do with being able to produce the most offsrping. plus, well there is no evolution center of the brain that says "oh, I can't handle life so for the good of my species im going to off myself"

[enevitable]

Originally Posted by Eru_iluvatar

no, that's stupid. Evolution has not as much to do as being stronger, bigger and better more than it has to do with being able to produce the most offsrping. plus, well there is no evolution center of the brain that says "oh, I can't handle life so for the good of my species im going to off myself"

Are you even familiar with the processes of Evolution? Because what you said not only contradicts it, but embarrasses me for its cognitive reasoning.

[plugged]

Originally Posted by Swa_Swa

By doing so they take out certain genes of the gene pool and this benefits evolution. Anyone else agree or care to tear this idea apart.

Not true at all. Why? Because not everyone who commits suicide has all bad genes. I could go into all types of personality and how a person with one personality may deal with something one way and consider it simple, while someone with another personality can find it to be the hardest thing they've dealt with.

...excuse me while I smoke. If the rest of this is harder to understand..you know why

Here's the thing.. The last few weeks, especially the latest couple, have been very bad for me, and for the first time in my life I have been depressed enough to entertain the thought of suicide. The ony thing that's keeping me going is the fact that I know I can make it better. I'm bringing this up to highlight the point I put in bold text above..take a moment to re-read it if you need to... Now, I've talked to friends who've lost their entire marriage and the whole time it was happening, they could function as if nothing out of the ordinary was happening.. They could deal with it easier. I lost much less than that and it's still fucking with me. Pardon my language, please.

I mean, I'm not going around thinking of killing myself when things are great. Ever gone to your buddy's and said "hey bro, let's catch a movie and shoot ourselves!" - of course not! Suicide is for the most part driven by some form of depression. Have you ever heard of someone committing suicide just to do it? I sure haven't.. When it's all said and done there's usually a reason behind it.

That's not the point I'm making here, though. You're right, if I kill myself, that does help rid the world of genes that make someone prone to deep depression (remember, I've only ever felt suicidal when I'm very depressed).. BUT, it's also helping remove good (genetic) things about me. That's like being pissed that one wall looks whiter than the others and tearing your house down, then trying to justify it by saying "well, it took care of the problem" .. maybe it did, but wasn't there a better way?

That made sense to me. If it's fucking retarded I'll fix it when I'm not high.

[enevitable]

Originally Posted by plugged

Not true at all. Why? Because not everyone who commits suicide has all bad genes. I could go into all types of personality and how a person with one personality may deal with something one way and consider it simple, while someone with another personality can find it to be the hardest thing they've dealt with.

...excuse me while I smoke. If the rest of this is harder to understand..you know why

Here's the thing.. The last few weeks, especially the latest couple, have been very bad for me, and for the first time in my life I have been depressed enough to entertain the thought of suicide. The ony thing that's keeping me going is the fact that I know I can make it better. I'm bringing this up to highlight the point I put in bold text above..take a moment to re-read it if you need to... Now, I've talked to friends who've lost their entire marriage and the whole time it was happening, they could function as if nothing out of the ordinary was happening.. They could deal with it easier. I lost much less than that and it's still fucking with me. Pardon my language, please.

I mean, I'm not going around thinking of killing myself when things are great. Ever gone to your buddy's and said "hey bro, let's catch a movie and shoot ourselves!" - of course not! Suicide is for the most part driven by some form of depression. Have you ever heard of someone committing suicide just to do it? I sure haven't.. When it's all said and done there's usually a reason behind it.

That's not the point I'm making here, though. You're right, if I kill myself, that does help rid the world of genes that make someone prone to deep depression (remember, I've only ever felt suicidal when I'm very depressed).. BUT, it's also helping remove good (genetic) things about me. That's like being pissed that one wall looks whiter than the others and tearing your house down, then trying to justify it by saying "well, it took care of the problem" .. maybe it did, but wasn't there a better way?

That made sense to me. If it's fucking retarded I'll fix it when I'm not high.

Doesn't really matter about the good, the whole idea of natural selection is getting rid of the bad. I.E. the ones who couldn't survive.

Your suicide example doesn't really fit because you don't seem mentally unstable, nor do you sound like you could commit with it.

[plugged]

You're absolutely right about natural selection, so as far as that goes I can't argue my point anymore. (I didn't read this whole topic, just the OP)

Everyone's got their way of dealing with it I write and make music. Without those and my medications I'd have done myself in years ago.

[Eru_iluvatar]

Originally Posted by enevitable

Are you even familiar with the processes of Evolution? Because what you said not only contradicts it, but embarrasses me for its cognitive reasoning.

please explain your theory of evolution because NOTHING I said contradicts evolution. by having more offspring I mean that genetic mutations allowing that animal to live longer by adapting to its surroundings better, longer dick, more sperm, (obvioulsy kidding although that would be evolution) therefor passing that specific genetic mutation to its offspring. I know what I'm talking about I am in Advanced placement biology of course there is alot more to evolution that just that, but suicide, in my opintion is not an evolution mechanic

[BlazinX1]

I suspose this could be true, except I don't think there are genes that determine if we have the ability to kill ourself or not, so while we may be weeding out the "week" people, I don't think that it will lead to creating any stronger of a race.

I've had some pretty shitty luck right now, I've contemplated killing myself, hell I even have a gun, but I've never come so far to put it to my head. So that means that despite whats going on in my life I mustn't have the gene that makes me able to kill myself. However, if it came down to a situation where I could either kill myself, or have a ton of people I truly loved and cared about me killed, I think I would be able to pull the trigger.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of the population would kill them self in that situation, to save those they truely love. For those of you with long relationships, married, or have children, wouldn't you kill yourself to save their life? Think of Armageddon.

Anyways, if we all killed ourself to save others, wouldn't that be a trait that we want to save, not destroy. At the same time there would be cowardice people who wouldn't have the ability to pull the trigger, even if it meant saving alot more people, people who they love. So essentially wouldn't the type of people we don't want, be the ones who live in such a situation, and be reverse natural selection?

I think that people commit suicide based on the experiences in their life, and it doesn't have to do with genetics. There are plenty of genetically strong people who do kill them self, and plenty of people that don't deserve to walk this Earth based on my standards (child rapists, psycho's, mass murderers) yet they are still alive.

Edit: Argument against my argument (this way other people can't make it)
The point of natural selection is to do what will ultimately lead to the survival of the species, so it could be argued that those who do not kill them self in the above situation are in fact the best for natural selection, since they do whatever it takes to survive, even if that means allowing others to die.

However, I feel the difference lies with humans, seeing as humans we have the ability to think complexly, we should be able to see that killing yourself to save others, is more important than our own survival, and essentially the person should kill them self.

[plugged]

Originally Posted by Eru_iluvatar

suicide, in my opintion is not an evolution mechanic

Word.

If it were we'd have kamikaze pidgeons downtown...

[enevitable]

Actually animals do commit suicide
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-An...de-63441.shtml

Evolution is as simple as unfavorable mutations being selected against, and favorable mutations being selected

Seems perfectly plausible to me

[nitrum]

I think suicide is RARELY hereditary. But when it is, I highly doubt it evolved over thousands of years. Evolution invents mechanisms for perpetuating good genes. But bad genes just automatically disappear (the animal dies or can't reproduce). Evolution doesn't have to invent that mechanism. So I think inherited suicidal tendencies are simply "defective" genes dying off, but not an evolved trait.

I think suicide really has to do with our understanding of death. Humans are smart enough to realize that death will end suffering, despite our instinctive will to survive.

Still, blazinx1 brought up a good point. When I talk about suicide I mean killing yourself because your depressed etc. Dying to save other people is definitely an evolved trait. The people you die to save are typically going to be your family or tribe which all have SIMILAR genes. So a "brave" tribe is able to fight off competing tribes, and is more likely to survive. Societies really function more like a single super-organism. This is probably how patriotism, loyalty, and religious tendencies evolved. They united people in fighting a common competitor.

Now some people even speculate that schizophrenia may have evolved. A crazy person is more likely to do something revolutionary, so a society might benefit if 1 out of a 100 are crazy. Maybe fire and spears were invented by an insane person. Those societies could then kill off all the competing tribes. It's farfetched, but who knows.

[plugged]

Mental illness and intelligence often come hand in hand.. Bipolar, depression, schizophrenia.. The first 2, fairly common these days, all of them can lead to isolating yourself and often do due to social anxiety that usually comes with all 3. Isolate yourself. What do you do? You don't socialize, you observe. Reading, watching, trying to figure out how and why everything's working the way it is.. The key to being a great artist, is being miserable.. that's what I've heard anyway.

nitrum, you are damn right being mentally ill can make you smart. I know that's not how you meant it, but it doesn't make it any less true. I'm not saying ALL mentally ill people are smart though. We're all given the tools, not everyone uses them, so to speak

Sorry if the the high rambling makes no sense.