Is What We've Done to Dogs an Atrocity?

[BKKG]

OK, so this is kind of a weird idea, but hear me out. And I'd like to start by saying that I love dogs, I think that they're wonderful.

So the modern day dog is descended from the wolf. The most widely held hypothesis is that ancient, primitive human settlements (like mobile camps for a nomadic lifestyle) tended to flourish when there were wolves nearby. There were enough humans that the wolves wouldn't attack, but if they just waited around the humans would move on and they would get the scraps. So the wolves stayed and discouraged other predators from attacking the settlement. Eventually people started to notice this, and purposefully used food to keep the wolves around. Over long periods of time, humans started to breed these wolves specifically to enhance traits like obedience in them, to reduce the danger to the humans . This process produced the modern dog, and most of those dogs today are bred for consistency in things like appearance.


So, my question is: Was that a really bad thing? Humans genetically manipulated a species to make it docile and subservient to us. Did humans steal something valuable from the wolf,
for our own ends?

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm quite

[GolgiApparatus]

no. a doggy dog would rather live in the comfort of a warm home and a loving family then survive every day out in the cold harsh wild methinks

[rssnstyle89]

why would it be bad... there are still wolves, its not like humans take wolves and convert them into dogs every day... the transition was made over many many years. Its a different species.

[scoobydooby67]

we?

first of all, domesticating started a fuck of a long time ago,

so if i felt responsible for that then i would feel bad about being white.

anywho, no "we" have been domesticating and breeding animals for our own means since like forever.

i love the vast variety of dogs,

i love dogs more than most people.

[Zylark]

Dogs are great. That is, actual dogs, not those shitty yapping little rats that some women insist on carrying around. Breeding those are an atrocity. I cringe every time I see it. Proper dogs carry with them at least some of the features of its origin, the wolf.

The relationship between humans and dogs is a win-win situation. We keep them fed and warm, they give us unconditional affection and maybe some work (Hunting, shepherding, tracking) in return.

Much as the relationship between our rulers, the cats, and us.

[blazedandcrazed]

dogs and humans have worked together for thousands of years. in the nomadic hunter lifestyle they compliment eachother very well.

plus 99% of dogs would much rather sit on thier asses all day instead of hunt for rabbits n shit

[Eru_iluvatar]

no, I think only more recently we have been breeding dogs specifically for special purposes.....although I don't mean recent like past 100 years longer than that. ya know

[thegodfather420]

i dont think its a bad thing at all. go take a look at your dog.....i bet he's licking his own balls right now isnt he.....i think he's pretty happy.

[Predator1]

I think what we have done to domestic birds is far worse...

Dogs are alright though, I think my dog is happy so long as he keeps getting free food

[bommer09]

From an evolutionary standpoint it makes perfect sense. The wolves adapted to ways in which they survived better. By having a mutually beneficial relationship with humans, wolves were able to reproduce easier. I would be that just generations of following a higher life form around would breed docility and obedience, although i'm sure humans accelerated the process a little bit. I don't think it is a bad thing though. Dogs are great and loveable. There is a special bond that people share with dogs, something about them is in us and vice versa.

[nitrum]

BKKG, It sounds like you think there is something sacred about the way wolves evolved in the wild. In reality, nature just gives animals the traits necessary to SURVIVE. It doesn't give useless, but "valuable" traits just to be nice to the animal.

They actually don't know exactly how dogs evolved. Although there was purposeful breeding at some point, the earliest dogs may have evolved more "naturally", something like this. Humans, which were new-comers, provided a new source of food. The nicer wolves were more willing to be near the villages, and these wolves seperated from the more wild wolves. Over successive generations the nicer wolves always had more success, which enriched further generations and made dogs.

If this is the case this always happens in nature. New food source ---> new species branching off. I guess I kind of understand your point with the bredding, because it doesn't really let evolution run its course. There might be a hurtful genes that gets perpetuated that would otherwise kill the dog. I mean look at Chihuahua. They take advantage of a birth mutation and reinforce it over a bunch of generations. Thats kind of like taking migets and having them "breed" over and over and over until you create a 1 foot tall race of people. I mean, how the hell did they get a dog that small from wolves! You can't possibly do that without screwing up something, like I think small dogs have messed up joints. So I guess it is sometimes bad, but I think in general we aren't taking something away from the,

Cool thread though BKKG. I think domestication is really interesting.

[HighGrowMan]

I think it really makes you realize how much responsibility that we have. We create species of animals all the time, just by our ability to manipulate our environment to our will.

House dogs certainly have been dumbed down over the years. Like the one my friend got. He decided to get a little poodle, to act as an alarm dog. It seems like he is have little to no luck house training the little guy.

He got the little dog even though he already owned a large black lab * collie, but the way he looks at it, is that having a yappy little dog helps to keep the big dog on it's toes.

btw, black lab * collie cross is a very nice dog. I think his has some shepard in it as well, but it is completely jet black, but it has a bit of the posture of a collie, with the thick hair around the neck; it's face is pretty much that of a lab. And it's deep brown eyes are extremely aware of whats going on.

Dogs are such a good judge of character. This dog never barks at anybody, except for a few people who ended turning out to be bad news.

If this dog would bark at you in an aggressive tone after first meeting you I would definitely watch my tongue around you very carefully until i know you better.

[harvester]

Originally Posted by nitrum

BKKG, It sounds like you think there is something sacred about the way wolves evolved in the wild. In reality, nature just gives animals the traits necessary to SURVIVE.

Nature doesn't give anything, a certain life form will adapt and evolve these traits. You might say that the environment (nature) is the catalyst to the development of these traits, but the environment has no sense of direction, and neither does the life that lives within it.

The world may appear ordered but if you look deeper into the history of the world it has, for the most part, been chaos. What we see now is merely our perception of an ordered world. This thing feeds off that thing, this thing spreads the pollen for that thing etc etc... So we get some perception of order. Yet on closer inspection it seems to me that all that has happened is that things have developed this symbiotic relationship over a period of billions of years, from the first single strand of protein (you could call it god), to where all life is now.

We have not done anything to dogs except speed up and genetically modify their evolutionary processes. If you take that away then we have no need of the dog any more and they would most likely become extinct.

I agree on the big dog thing, I have a dog for security reasons, he's also a loyal companion who seems to have no fear. Also a great family dog, I have 3 kids and they all love him. I believe the world is becoming more ordered, and soon they will try to ban all big dogs... in my country there are reports of dog attacks all the time... particularly Rottweilers. I believe these attacks are the fault of the owners and their handling of the dog, an elderly couple owning a rottweiler and just leaving it outside all day is no good. Dogs are instinctive animals, and there must always be a top dog. An elderly couple and a rottweiler, hmmm... who would the dog feel was in control? The only thing keeping the old couple alive is the fact that they feed him every day. I fight with my dog all the time and I know his moves, if it came down to it I could take him out. Dogs need a top dog, they need to be controlled... if nobody is there to teach them right from wrong they'll never know any better.

Sorry for the rant, i'm

[BKKG]

OK, now that I've sobered up I feel differently about the issue. I can still see the point that I had last night, but I don't think that people bred dogs to be servants (even though some may treat them that way), but rather as companions. Humans and dogs are friends, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

And as for using the word "we", it just seemed like a better pronoun to use than "they", since I'm a human too.

[phiegnux]

dogs make fantastic pets and wonderful companions. its been that way since humans realized what a personality they can have. some dogs really, really reflect there owners in terms of personality.