Anti-matter, dark matter, neutrinos, massless gravity, etc.

[chiefMOJOrisin]

Originally Posted by JesusC

So you're saying to Universe can exist without any life?

Explain to me how the Universe can still exist without ANYTHING here to recognize it?

Why does something have to be acknowledged to be in existence??


The life you think of is an earthly word, and definition. We are but an atom of a grain of sand on an infinite beach. What we think of correct or valid has nothing to do with anything.


When a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it...does it still make a noise??


So your saying that when a galaxy merges with another and there isn't an earthly being to detect it, it doesn't happen?


You are too stuck on earth.


What if all of earth's life stopped evolving at triliobytes....they have no concept of anything...so I guess they must not even be there.

[g0pher]

As illogical as it may seem, the more I know of the universe, the more I find myself wondering if its not in fact... a put up job.

Too many things fall within such finely tuned parameters, that the probability of many physical events etc being produced by randomness, beggars belief.

Yet here we are - and here it is...

the universe

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by chiefMOJOrisin

Why does something have to be acknowledged to be in existence??


The life you think of is an earthly word, and definition. We are but an atom of a grain of sand on an infinite beach. What we think of correct or valid has nothing to do with anything.


When a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it...does it still make a noise??


So your saying that when a galaxy merges with another and there isn't an earthly being to detect it, it doesn't happen?


You are too stuck on earth.


What if all of earth's life stopped evolving at triliobytes....they have no concept of anything...so I guess they must not even be there.

Its not about being stuck on earth.


What im saying is that as long as there is something alive within it, the Universe exists. Whether or not its a simple living orgainism or a complex intelligent orgainism doesnt really matter, life gives existence to the Universe.....just as the Universe gives existence to life.

If nothing was alive to experience this place in one form or another, this place wouldnt exist....it couldnt.

Think about it...

When you die, what will exist to you? When every living thing here on earth is gone, what will exist to earthly beings? If every living thing within the Universe was no longer alive, how could the Universe still exist?

All im saying is that if nothing ever came into the form of life here in the Universe, how could you possibly claim this place would still exist? In order for existence to even become a possiblity, wouldnt you agree that something has to be aware of existence itself.....again, in whatever form that may be?

Unless the Universe itself is self-aware, I dont believe the Universe can actually exist without something to recognize that its here.

This isnt about things that happen from one end of the Universe to the next (ie merging galaxies), this is about the Universe itself. Something somewhere had to be aware that it is here, otherwise it cant exist.



I guess the biggest question is this: What if life never happend? What if life never played a role in the Universe from beginning to end (assuming there is one)? How could you claim the Universe would/could exist without it? How could it exist without something to know its here?

[Key2gb]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Its not about being stuck on earth.


What im saying is that as long as there is something alive within it, the Universe exists. Whether or not its a simple living orgainism or a complex intelligent orgainism doesnt really matter, life gives existence to the Universe.....just as the Universe gives existence to life.

If nothing was alive to experience this place in one form or another, this place wouldnt exist....it couldnt.

Think about it...

When you die, what will exist to you? When every living thing here on earth is gone, what will exist to earthly beings? If every living thing within the Universe was no longer alive, how could the Universe still exist?

All im saying is that if nothing ever came into the form of life here in the Universe, how could you possibly claim this place would still exist? In order for existence to even become a possiblity, wouldnt you agree that something has to be aware of existence itself.....again, in whatever form that may be?

Unless the Universe itself is self-aware, I dont believe the Universe can actually exist without something to recognize that its here.

This isnt about things that happen from one end of the Universe to the next (ie merging galaxies), this is about the Universe itself. Something somewhere had to be aware that it is here, otherwise it cant exist.



I guess the biggest question is this: What if life never happend? What if life never played a role in the Universe from beginning to end (assuming there is one)? How could you claim the Universe would/could exist without it? How could it exist without something to know its here?

but the Universe itself is alive...some kind of organism in itself...it's language is what we call physics...gravity makes things naturally interact along with all other forces...i see this as a natural form of communication...i think your question is "what if OUR life never happened?"..in which case, no one knows..but we don't really have any effect on how the universe has been played out...who's to say it can or can't exist under certain parameters

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Its not about being stuck on earth.


What im saying is that as long as there is something alive within it, the Universe exists. Whether or not its a simple living orgainism or a complex intelligent orgainism doesnt really matter, life gives existence to the Universe.....just as the Universe gives existence to life.

If nothing was alive to experience this place in one form or another, this place wouldnt exist....it couldnt.

Think about it...

When you die, what will exist to you? When every living thing here on earth is gone, what will exist to earthly beings? If every living thing within the Universe was no longer alive, how could the Universe still exist?

Some bigger questions: is that going to happen? And is it going to happen soon? And if it is soon, when?

All im saying is that if nothing ever came into the form of life here in the Universe, how could you possibly claim this place would still exist? In order for existence to even become a possiblity, wouldnt you agree that something has to be aware of existence itself.....again, in whatever form that may be?

Yes, that is true. For a concept to exist, other concepts must exist to approximate it.

Unless the Universe itself is self-aware, I dont believe the Universe can actually exist without something to recognize that its here.

Are you self-aware? Do you even know what you're saying sometimes? What says a Universe can't be as well? We're just concepts. Here, I'll show you: Could there be humanity if there was only one human? Nah, two reasons why not: 1. If that human died, there would be no humans left, and one human means no kids. Unless this person knew how to clone himself, it's all over. Even then, there's no humanity, but there is a laboratory. 2. You need two people to say that there is an "ideal" human. If there's only one, that human could just be recognized by what it calls itself (its name), not the term "human", which refers to a species with fundamental similarities that we within it can relate to one another through verbal abstractions. Could there be a Universe if there was no representation of it in multiple forms?

I guess the biggest question is this: What if life never happend? What if life never played a role in the Universe from beginning to end (assuming there is one)? How could you claim the Universe would/could exist without it? How could it exist without something to know its here?

A bigger question is: why are you hung up on this? Does it being true that life never began affect your actions in any way? Might as well just keep living.

[chiefMOJOrisin]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Its not about being stuck on earth.


What im saying is that as long as there is something alive within it, the Universe exists. Whether or not its a simple living orgainism or a complex intelligent orgainism doesnt really matter, life gives existence to the Universe.....just as the Universe gives existence to life.

If nothing was alive to experience this place in one form or another, this place wouldnt exist....it couldnt.

Think about it...

When you die, what will exist to you? When every living thing here on earth is gone, what will exist to earthly beings? If every living thing within the Universe was no longer alive, how could the Universe still exist?

All im saying is that if nothing ever came into the form of life here in the Universe, how could you possibly claim this place would still exist? In order for existence to even become a possiblity, wouldnt you agree that something has to be aware of existence itself.....again, in whatever form that may be?

Unless the Universe itself is self-aware, I dont believe the Universe can actually exist without something to recognize that its here.

This isnt about things that happen from one end of the Universe to the next (ie merging galaxies), this is about the Universe itself. Something somewhere had to be aware that it is here, otherwise it cant exist.



I guess the biggest question is this: What if life never happend? What if life never played a role in the Universe from beginning to end (assuming there is one)? How could you claim the Universe would/could exist without it? How could it exist without something to know its here?

I see your point, and understand what you are getting at....yet I still can't totally agree. Plenty of things were in existence before we discovered them. Plenty of things are yet to be discovered....it doesn't mean they do not exist. The giant squid didn't pop into existance as soon as someone theorized that is lived.




If what you are saying is true, then maybe the only 'being(s)' that needs to know anything are the aliens playing marbles with the membranes in the multiverse.

No one saw the big bang....or what happened beforehand. Maybe nothing truely exists. Maybe we aren't even having this conversation.



We are born from the raw materials of the universe. Humans are just the latest in a long line of evolution that starts with hydrogen clouds. Since we are all comsic relatives, wouldn't the universe know what it needs to know...just because?? The universe is itself, a being. I believe it would continue to be self conscious, with or without the aide of living things.


You asked,

When you die, what will exist to you? When every living thing here on earth is gone, what will exist to earthly beings? If every living thing within the Universe was no longer alive, how could the Universe still exist?

The universe is us, and we are the universe. That long chain of evolution doesn't seize to be when the most relevent and capable link seizes to be. If there was a random disease that only affected humans and wiped us all out in days, wouldn't all the organisms that evolved before/with us still be around? Wouldn't the earth still be around?

Without life, the stars and planets and comets and black holes would continue to be. We are made of the same things......so perhaps if the universe's offspring exist, alive or not, the universe would exist. If only because some other form of something is still around to counteract the existance. I just don't think it has to be alive/conscious.



I don't think either one of us is going to win this debate......at least with each other. Although, it is good to argue with someone who knows how to do so intellegently, and respectfully.

However, to be complete, I do have reasoning in your favor. Webster's defines 'to exist': to have real being whether material or spiritual. And further; to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions.

If there are no understood limitations or conditions, then according to Webster's, supposedly there is no real being. But then again, that is a definition created on earth. For all we know, there is another far away planet that has been where we are, sped on by, and figured everything out in the process. Perhaps once we talk to them we will really know the answer.

I smell a poll thread.

[bkadoctaj]

Bump... for relevance?