How is Israel an apartheid state?

Ofcourse Israel isn't a racist state. That rather faulty claim is just piece and parcel of some leftists demonization propaganda campaign against Israel. Good ol' jew-hatred masquarading as anti-zionism.

As you say J-Dilla, non-jews are represented on all levels of Israeli society. Non-jewish citizens enjoy the same rights as jews in Israel.

Fun little fact: The only state-sponsored discrimination in Israel, is Israeli troops and police denying non-muslims access to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. So, if like say me, you are a rabid infidel anti-theist with a keen interest in history, and just happen to be in Israel to look at old archeological digs and historic places, I can visit any old jewish, roman, ottoman and christian site in Israel, except ofcourse the Temple Mount. There I will be denied admittance by predominantly jewish security forces acting on the demand of muslim clerics to discriminate against all non-muslims. Your only real hope of getting to see the Temple Mount as a non-muslim, is to bring along a camera-crew, and press credentials from some left-leaning outlet, like say the BBC.

That do not mean however that there do not exist racist jews. There do, especially amongst the more fanatical fundie orthodox settlers. But they are by far a minority group.

Meanwhile, Abbas himself have proclaimed that in a future Palestinian state, there will not be allowed a single jew. Not one. The apologists for evil, aka pro-palestinian leftist, overlook such and other disturbing open jew-hatred from Palestinian and arab leaders and media entirely. Meaning they either think it not important enough for worry, or more chillingly, they agree.

Jew-hatred is a very mainstream sentiment amongst muslims. And not just in the middle east. Violence against jews is on the rise in Europe as well. And, no, it is not some resurgence of neo-nazi numbnuts. It is muslim immigrants, especially youth-gangs, attacking jews, desecrating jewish cemetaries and trying to burn down or blow up jewish synagogues and businesses.

Putting the leftist apologists for evil in an awkard position. They don't know quite what foot to stand on. They know on some level that anti-semittism is bad, never again and all that. But they can't really criticise the muslims and the doctrines of islam to much either, because that would be for some reason that escapes me, racist...

 

I am against the Zionist state of Israel, the Gov't, hell I'm against many of the worlds Gov't, but never in my arguments do I say Israel separates the Muslims and Jews or imply any racial division. But then again, you do read about racism but that doesn't mean its the common way of life there. Lets face it, this is not a perfect world and all is not well.

Also, the state of Israel is on stolen land and because the same was done the American Indian does NOT excuse those actions that only took place in 1948. Our grandparents were alive in 1948. So you're saying its okay to not learn from mistakes, to take advantage of people (includes killing, relocating, lying, etc), while reaping the rewards?

 

Your last sentence in your first post, that's where.

The British took the land from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Britain later gave control of the area to NATO, and "after" the 1948 Palestian war (Jews vs Arabs) the zionists declared themselves a state and NATO obliged. There was plans to have a jewish state & an arab state, the arean split in half, but it obviously didnt work out. The Jewish people slowly began to move to that area beginning in the 19th century but in small numbers. In the late 19th & early 20th century the influx began to increase and after WWII the influx grew rapidly. Meanwhile, the Arabs already called that place home. Lots of theives in history. The poor people who lived on those lands didn't matter to them. No surprised from the British, their history speaks for itself, as does many others.

That's how I recall it, but look it up, I could be wrong.

 

Well, you are wrong. The brits and french took over the non-Turkish parts of the Ottoman empire, and divided it up between them as nation states along more or less arbitrary lines. What was then called the british mandate of palestine, was supposed to be a new homeland for the jews from the onset. Sanctioned by the League of Nations. But, to placate the arabs, the greater part was sequestered into a seperate arab state. Then Trans-Jordan, now just Jordan. What was left was still under british rule, and still intended for jewish settlement. Ofcourse, not without arab protest, most noticably from the mufti of Jerusalem, who incidently was nice and cozy with Nazi-Germany during WW2.

Post WW2, for natural reasons, the pressure grew for jews to have a land of their own. This time, rubber-stamped by the UN.

In retrospect, one can say it was a bad idea for creating a non-muslim land in the midst of muslim territory. The ummah do not look kindly upon loosing ground. And a jewish state to boot... Islam have been persecuting jews since its inception.

But where else to have a jewish state? There have been a jewish prescence in todays Israel since recorded history began. It is the center of their pre-diaspora history. But at any rate, they were offered about 50% of the remaining british protectorate of Palestine. They said yes, the arabs said hell no. War ensued, Israel won by the skin of their teeth, and an armistice line was drawn up following what is erroniously called the 1967 borders.

In that period (48-67), Gaza was occupied by Egypt, and the West-Bank by Jordan. No-one then talked about a Palestinian state, as indeed Jordan then called itself the Palestinian state.

But even before the 1967 war and Israel freeing the West Bank from Jordanian occupation and Gaza from Egyptian occupation, PLO was formed (in 1963). And their goal then as now, was never a two-state solution. It was to annihilate Israel, and reclaim what in their perception is muslim land. Which is why at every junction there have been an offer on the table, where Israel gives land in return for a peace treaty, Palestinian authorities have always rejected it.

And so the saga continues.

So you can say the conflict is racially motivated. But it isn't by and large jews doing the discrimination...

 

I'm not one to suggest Israel is an apartheid state, but I'm vehemently opposed to the illegal settlemets that Israel still isn't effectively stopping, as well as the large percent of Palestinian males imprisoned at least once by Israel. Contrary to what you hear in American media, more than 2/3 of Israelis support going back to the 1967 borders, as well as more than half of Palestinians. Hamas isn't even that popular in Gaza, infact several polls have implied that Fatah is more popular. The blockade is basically forcing many Palestinians to rely on Hamas for goods that are now on the blackmarket.

 

When the people are placed in a terrible situation and have their freedom taken away, radicals can become popular very easily. That's what happened when Hamas was voted in.

 

Yes, but not unconditionally. They've seen that did not quite work with the giving up of Gaza. More or less overnight after leaving Gaza to Palestinian control, rocket and mortar attacks into Israel increased by a five-fold.

Israel and Israelis are quite ready to do what is necessary in order to gain peace. And that includes transferring control of nearly all of the west bank to palestinians. In Oslo, Israel said yes to an agreement that would lead to 93% of the West Bank coming under Palestinian control. The PA represented by Yassir Arafat and the PLO said no. At the Camp David summit, Israel agreed to a near 100% transfer of power, with landswaps. Yet the Palestinians said no.

The problem here is not Israeli lack of will to make peace. It is Palestinian inability to make peace. Their agenda is not so much a Palestinian state, as it is the destruction of the jewish state. And that is a sentiment shared by all Palestinian major parties. Hamas is just very explicit about the fact, wheras Fatah is more circumspect. Saying one thing amongst themselves, another to the non-muslim world.

Either way, first chance they got, the inhabitants of Gaza voted into power a totalitarian organization who's motto is to kill all jews. There is no excuse for that. Try as you might.

Freedom taken away? Did not Hamas come into power _AFTER_ Israel in a fit of naive kumbaya gave up control of Gaza? And what happened? Did we see peace and reconcilliation? Some tentative moves towards mutual understanding and cooperation?

No.

First they rampaged evacuated jewish homes and businesses in Gaza, then went on to elect a basically nazi party as their government. And ofcourse increasing terror attacks into Israel.

In islamic terms, by giving up land, conceeding to demands, Israel showed weakness. And that was to be exploited, not congratulated.

 

Its a claim that flames tensions which may due more harm than good

Here's a good article I read recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=israel%20apartheid&st=cse

 

The Israeli government is equally if not more deceiving as the PA. Netanyahu has no plans to even respect the peace accords. Checkpoint Washington - Netanyahu: 'America is a thing you can move very easily'

Here was the Israeli governments plan for Gaza. Yah, Israelis are so anxious for peace, alright.

 

oh please the Israeli's ignored the camp david accord.

what were the conditions of these agreements, sir? probably something ridiculous like "you can run your own government BUT our military bases stay in the west bank."

Israeli government, at least, does not want peace. perhaps neither does the palestinian government,

I do not reject that the people of these nations do want peace, however.

 

Israelis do want peace but not at any cost.
There's a limit guys for what we could give.

 

I understand. It would be nice if you showed the world by first getting rid of your insane government and stopping the settlements.

 

I'm sorry but what you can't do besides starting ridicules threads is change Facts.

Now have a look at this again, I know it may be horror for you but those are facts.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

Now what settlements are you talking about ?

They lost the west bank and they know that they lost that in war. they don't really want peace, you guys are eating news papers crap everyday.

 

Camp David was bullshit. I'm Israeli, that's my opinion. That was the reason for the horrible murder of Rabin RIP.
I Think this was a very bad move by Rabin, but definitely not a reason for killing him.

Major parts of the west bank are a must for Israel security. Face it, some parts will never be given back, at least not without massive IDF control.

 

[quote name='"J-DILLA"']I keep hearing anti-Israeli fear mongers saying Israel is an apartheid state, but I have yet to hear their explanation as it doesn't make sense.

Israel allows full citizenship to Arabs and other minorities. Arabs and other minorities are permitted to hold positions in the government. Heck, even Arab women have more rights in Israel than they do in their native Muslim lands....

I can't recall seeing these types of signs the last time I went to Israel..

)[/quote]

This is all anti israel bullshit out there, you are very right, they have the same rights as us, In every way.

If you ask me ? I would kick them out of our government yesterday, sometime they say things against us that we don't believe why they are even sitting there (Kneset)...

 

We have been over this many times before...
http://forum.grasscity.com/politics/691222-israeli-apartheid.html

Us and them ?

And people wonder why the Israeli/Palestine conflict cannot be resolved...

As for whether Israel is inflicting apartheid upon the Palestinian people...

Crime of apartheid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Without a fucking doubt...