Wrong. There are clear measurements that can be taken and have been taken throughout history. Then there are very clear examples of total state run economies, complete disasters. The FACT is, the more free an economy, the better it is.
[quote name='"Messiah Decoy"']It doesn't matter if there's 100% employment if a fifth of the jobs don't pay enough to survive. It is wage slavery. If you just get enough to barely cover food and shelter you are wage slave who works your ass off for a couple of basic needs to keep you alive and working. Your employer is exploiting you. The minimum wage is to prevent wide exploitation.[/quote] Ask yourself the question how did your grandparents survived on 1 income? my great grandpa never made over 2 dollars and 70 cents an hour his whole entire life yet he raised 6 children owned 20 acres of land in salinas california where he farmed. he was very productive and lived very comfortably and was by no means rich but very wealthy. he was born in 1901 and live to 1990 a long productive life with no social security no medicare no medi cal no government aid period. his accumulated wealth was passed down to my grandfather who opened up a lumber business then a trailer park and then a resort then started developing houses. He then move to the town that we live in now where we opened up a family operated small business and has become the towns number 1 employer and tax payer. we donated land to the town for museums we employ many . I started working at the ripe old age of 9 picking weeds and picking up sticks on his land 4 a dollar an hour and a sunkist Orange soda a day. I worked up until I was 12 before I made over 3 dollars an hour. our family has sacrificed greatly and has worked many hard hours. nothing in my family is free or given to you we are expected to work harder and longer than everyone in the business. start a business try employing some people make a payroll meet a demand supply a service do it on your own. I took out a 10,000 dollar unsecured personal loan at the age of 20 all on my own with no co signers simply because I held a job for longer than 4 years. I took that money and bought a escavator tractor with 0 experience running it, and started digging holes in my yard after work to teach myself. I then started working weekends with it charging 60 dollars a hour until I developed clientele and started charging 80 hr and it became a full time job. I saved money and bought more equipment. I'm not gonna tell you it was easy I lost a lot of sleep worried my ass off I was trying to be the best father I could be and provide for my new born. But through hard work dedication and perseverance I've been semi productive and have carved out a nice living for myself. I have bought 5 acres of land in the country have built my own small home 1000 sq ft.
I've lived off of $9.50 an hour for years in a family of four (as the only income), able to actually save money, and just got approved to buy a home. I've managed to have good credit, not have any debt whatsoever, in fact, I was approved to buy a house just this week for only 50 dollars more a month than what I'm paying in rent. I'll share a secret on how I save money, because for me it's natural whereas other people struggle. First: Bills- I pay all of my bills ahead. If I get an insurance bill, I pay the full six months up front. When it comes to cell phones, I found a pre paid plan that allows me to have 2 cell phones with 300 minutes per phone for only 30 dollar per month, total, not each. This allowed me to eliminate my house phone. I found out google is letting people make calls free through their service, so I dropped my fifty dollar house line and bought a little box for 50 bucks that forwards all my google calls to my house and cell phones. One number rings, all my phones ring. Saved myself 600 a year just by turning my phone off. My car is paid off and I dont trade it in, because I'd prefer to have money instead of a bill. I've never had a speeding ticket in my 12 years driving, because I ask myself before I do anything "is this an unnecessary risk?" When it comes to credit cards, I never leave a balance on the card. I pay it in full in the middle of each month, even though it's not due for another 2 weeks, that way I always have a positive credit rating and they never report debt. I've never been late with a card. We don't eat out. We learned how to make the things we used to buy at restaurants, so that we dont waste money on food. If you go to say "chilis" and buy a plate of chipotle chicken and potatoes and corn, you get a bill at the end for around 12-15 dollars. I realized while having dinner one night that potatoes and chicken and corn are some of the cheapest foods on earth. I can buy a bag of potatoes for 2 dollars, some chicken for 5 and a can of corn for a buck. I can take this food and make enough to feed 4 people for two dinners, and I do. Plus, we make it better than they do. You save A LOT of money eating at home. If you only spend 3 bucks a day eating out, 5 days a week, that's 15 a week, 30 in two weeks and 60 bucks a month. That's 720 dollars a year on fast food....adds up quick. Clothes: I've had the same clothes for about 5 years. The other day I was sitting at my grandmothers and she and my mom asked if I was wearing new shoes. I explained that they were in fact five years old and only look nice because I clean them before I leave my house. When home, I chill in my "relaxation" clothes, so that I always keep my other clothes nice and new and clothes aren't even part of my budget anymore, because I take care of what I have. Entertainment: I learned long ago to hack just about any electronic device you've got. I setup my computer to be hooked up to my tv via a tv tuner card, so that I can pick up digital channels and also, the tv tuner card works like a tivo, so I get tivo service, without any charge. I build and repair my own electronics and even bring them back to life for others. Maintenence: I save 30 bucks every time I change my own oil. I fix my own motorcycles and anything in my house that breaks, I fix it too. I've always been good at problem solving, so instead of spending an arm and a leg, I fix things cheaply. A mechanic recently told me it would be over 640 dollars to fix a problem with my car. I fixed it for three dollars and seventy five cents. When you make a list of your life and can actually be truthful and honest with yourself about what is a necessity and what is a want, you can save a shitload of money. I draw up plans of our budget, how much is coming in, the amount of bills we have and then set a savings plan. I want to have this much money by this day and month. Then I stick to that plan for the next year. When I reach the date on my budget plan, I usually have as much money or more than I set a goal for. I saved about 8 thousand dollars last year and about 7-8 the year before that. My rent is pretty cheap, because I shopped around for a long time to make sure I got the best deal. I dont buy weed. I help other people set up grows and grow plants on their land and in their gardens and because I help them and grow my own plants, I always have my own stash that is full and plenty. A little planning, frugality, will, and sacrifice goes further than you'll ever know. Electricity: I got a killawatt meter. Found out which devices in my house used electricity needlessly. Unplugged them all and only plug them in when needed now. Replaced every single bulb in my house with 13w cfls, havent seen my electricity bill go over 40 dollars since. Heating the home: Ive sealed every air leak I could find in my house. During the winters, I even hang blankets over doorways or use plastic shrink wrap to seal rooms I dont use. I do this during summer as well to cool the rooms I need only. Edit: For years I basically set myself up in a situation where we had everything we needed/wanted, so that we dont want/need for anything, so when we get paid, it goes towards bills and savings. We make our own fun, instead of paying for it.
Profit margins dictated that instance, as it does in most...those at the top refused to take home less, thus they FUCKED the employees by shutting down and moving to another area (where the same laws applied...not one bit of real savings, it was done out of spite)
I did not change the subject, it is directly involved with where you get your ideology and experience from... Hypocrites are fast to resort to evading questions and labeling others with derogatory tags when they are about to be exposed.
The countries that I listed have no minimum wage. How can they lower a minimum wage that doesn't exist in the first place? Your question was: If minimum wage laws aren't detrimental to employment, then why not raise them even higher? AGAIN... I never claimed the "IF" part of your question, so why would I answer the second part?
What I am trying to prove: Minimum wage laws are detrimental to employment where said laws apply. My (informal) proof by contradiction: If minimum wage laws are NOT detrimental to employment where said laws apply, then raising the minimum wage should also NOT be detrimental to employment. If this is the case, why would minimum wage advocates NOT support raising the minimum wage higher? I am not saying you claimed anything. I asked you to answer a question. I know, it was a hard question. Clearly, I was being unfair. Forgive me, Penelope.
How about we talk about congress and them giving themselves a raise, since they can and wont raise the minimum wage. Here's an old ass article Congress Votes Itself a Pay Raise
I was referring to the three you mentioned that did have minimum wage laws (Australia, Luxembourg, etc). All else equal, if you lower the minimum wage then unemployment should decrease. The countries with no minimum wage laws have those unemployment levels for reasons other than artificial wages.
No it shows that you either have real experience and first hand knowledge of the subject or that you are just some kid in college reading books on the subject...and have no real knowledge other than that, to base you opinions on. It is very relative to your opinions worth. ..some are afraid to be shown as frauds and charlatans on a subject...afraid others will know they are talking based on real life ignorance. (I've got 35 years of experience in the work force...30 years of working, living in the real world on my own...I hold 2 BS degrees in CS, an AS in programming technology, and a tech degree in electronics...I was not then and am not now in school being supported by others...I worked my way though all but that last BS degree, took out loans for that to my own despair now) Source and basis of opinions do matter. Don't they teach that in school still? So either answer or don't...just stop labeling anything you are afraid to answer with derogatory terms. political "ism's" are bad...m'kay...
the company shut down in lands we controlled, where our laws applied, and move to GA...so I guess GA is not in the USA...yep, that's my ass talking. You pick and choose very selectively what is or is not part of an equation being discussed...don't you. I choose to expand the basis to include all influencing factors, something that schools used to teach, but I know the schools curriculum's prefer to tighten focus now, to exclude all facts that could weaken the desired outcome of concepts being taught.
Cball, why are you so angry that a business owner who started his own business and employs mulltiple people has more money than the people he employs? They work for him. If they don't like his "gold ring" or his substantial pay, they can go work somewhere else and another low class, unemployed citizen will gladly take their place.
oh jeezes fucking christ, back to accusation of me mad about capitalism practices...(and you labeling the workers as "low class", shows your bigoted bias very clearly) success is fine, desired, it is EXCESS greed and undue low wages, tactics to enslave people, I express disdain towards. A gold ring from working your ass off is fine, if your boss has a truck load of gold rings by sitting on his ass doing nothing, while exploiting his workers that break their backs to make minimum wage, do you think that right, fair, justice? Small businesses are not filled with those types are they? The mom-n-pop shops have owners that work their asses off along side their employees (in most cases...I know there are some greedy fucks that exploit illegal immigrants as an example of such greed) Big businesses are full of greed based practices that screw over the workers so the top execs/owners can sit in luxury without ever having worked a day in their life, they inherited their life styles. It is those I rage about. I know some of the college kiddies here in GC that study economic theory love to argue about how things could work based on the books they study, but real life has more factors then those books will go into.
What do you mean I pick and choose? You said the business owners were moving to GA for no other reason than spite. I think it's much more likely that they moved to GA because the cost of operating abroad was now greater or equal to operating at home. They were able to replace 2,000 foreign workers with 200 domestic workers and a highly-automated cannery plant. Maybe the government gives them a bunch of tax breaks for bringing jobs home too, I don't know. To say that there was "not one bit of real savings" and it was done completely "out of spite" is a very bold assumption to be making... one that can only come from an irrational bias, or speaking from one's ass.
I have no bigoted bias. There is an upper class of society, and a lower class of society. If someone is forced to work for minimum wage, then unfortunately they fall into the latter category. While an inheritance is not earned, it still belongs to the owner and they can do whatever they like with it. If a boss has a truck full of gold rings and is exploiting his workers, they can go earn their living elsewhere and let his inherited business and luxurious life fall to shit. If the workers have no other option and their boss gives them enough to survive on, whether they break their backs or not, that is right, fair, and just. Without his low wages they would otherwise die, or else they wouldn't still be there. You talk about exploiting illegal immigrants. I'll bet those illegals take those jobs happily. All I asked was why you were so angry.
You seem to be expressing bigoted biased if you claim workers are low class... you may not have that desire to do so but that is how I reviewed it, right or wrong (I can accept worker-class, even call them builder-class, [producer-class maybe], as they build/produce/grow everything others use...a pretty important 'class' of people huh...) remove the so called 'upper class' and the world will get along fine, but remove those that produce/build/repair/grow and everything falls apart. excess greed of the boss causes a high turnover, which drives down production as training is required for the next worker...so a wage that would make the workers happy, in the long term, would keep a products cost down...it is a huge consideration in mfg (or do they omit that part in schools now, teaching the finer details of how prices are determined...) excess greed and corruption, with a heavy dose of apathetic mentality of kids that have no real life experience on the subject, who believe that it is ok to be excessivly greedy and not think of long term effects of their short term opportunistic profiteering, based only on the theories in books they study (not real life experience of their own or others)...a total disregard to the concept of 'reasonable' policies/laws/regulations/enforcements/actions/reactions in economic/political/civil practices..those things get my anger going. (oh the depth I could go into is great, but I try to express things in a reasonable space) but thanks for asking! yep, the illegals take those jobs here, but they left an area where they had no jobs too get, forced into the circumstance to survive...still doesn't make it right by the exploiter does it? Do you blame the rape victim for dressing 'that way' ?
no proof of anything you claim as why they moved but when I give my personal opinion of "spite" as a motivator, it's "talking out my ass"...bravo... Please get out in the real world, put down the college books for a bit. i.e..walk in the shoes of those you continuously refer to in derogatory terms. Suffer as others have had too. You may even discover that real world practices vs concepts, do not always agree on actual outcomes (concepts in school books disregard broader influences on how things work in the real world of humanity) I applaud your book knowledge, it is respectable, but you do need real life experience to have an understanding of how things really work and consequences (because people are involved, and people do have emotions, so a simple 'math' formula will not work)