the 90% myth

Okay, I'm getting tired of hearing some things on this forum and I've got to correct them before I start cussing people at random. It's going up in politics because the terms used in it show up in this forum from time to time, and folks here need an education. If it needs to go in Pandora let me know.
I'm tired, my nicotine patch has had me up all night, I want a bloody cigarette, and as you all know weed is a far distant dream to me at this point. So yes, I'm grouchy. Bear with me here.
My bona fides: I've been an active shooter for the better part of my life. I compete in shooting tournaments--one of the reasons I'm weed free, and will be until laws change. I ain't giving up my 2nd amendment rights just to get high, my pain levels suck but I can kinda live with 'em until the high-dose NSAIDs make me puke blood, and I ain't going to jail for years because I've got guns and weed in the house at the same time. The laws as written suck, and yes I'm bitter about it.
I was a wrench spinner in the Navy (to be precise I was a wire-biter--electrician to you civilian pukes--but we still spun lotsa wrenches), but I spent most of my off-duty hours with the guys whose job it was to kill people and break shit. I've got friends in every branch of specops, and sometimes they talk shop in their cups. I've gotten to play with more toys than most Hollywood actors, including heavy weapons like crew-served machine guns, grenade launchers, and artillery. yes, I got to play with miniguns, and I got to play with CWIS on board ship. It sounds like God's fart when it goes off.
Phalanx CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this started as a continuation from the Chinese bullets thread. not that many of you seem to be familiar with firearms, so part of this will be Guns 101.

first, the basics.
a semiautomatic weapon goes bang once every time you pull the trigger. It ejects the spent brass and puts the next round in place so you can pull the trigger. Unless you have special permits (and believe me, those permits get your name in all kinds of databases) you can only purchase a semiauto weapon in the US, or a weapon that requires manual cycling of the action to chamber the next round.

an automatic continues to go bang from the time you pull the trigger until you let it go, or until it runs out of ammo.
hosing an area with rounds is often referred to by those with a clue as "spray and pray" because you're not going to hit shit unless the law of averages plays your way--you spray an area with rounds and pray one hits the intended target.
This method is the preferred modus operandi of the gangbangers that use these weapons and the mujhadeen rank and file. Their veterans tend to shoot better, but the days of the Desert Marksman are pretty much over, with the glaring exception of the truly scary muj.
You can tell professionals by the way that they use burst fire--a weapon set to full auto but fired in short, more controllable bursts. Note, I said more controllable, not easily controlled. Even the slight recoil of 5.56 NATO makes the second and iterative follow-on rounds harder to control. The AK is notoriously inaccurate in anything outside of single-fire mode. Hell, one way to tell Chinese Kalashnikov variants from Russian variants is whether they pull up and to the left or pu and to the right--and they pull way the hell up. Spray and pray an AK and you may as well stand on the damn barrel to keep it down.

pretty much any gun you can buy legally in the US, at a gun show or not, without federal paperwork is going to be semiauto, or manually cycled in some way: pump, lever, or bolt action, or a manual change of cartridges.
It's much easier to simply buy an automatic rifle than it is to make the conversion. the parts to make the conversion are regulated just like the full auto weapons themselves are. BATF agents are all over the gun shows fishing for the conversion parts and the full auto guns with every bit the rabid ferocity and entrapment techniques that regular LEO use in the war on drugs.

now, to the main points of the post:
FIRST
the myth that all their guns come from here is just that, a myth.
American guns in Mexico: The 90 percent myth | United Liberty | Free Market - Individual Liberty - Limited Government

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

The PJ Tatler » U.S. admits that Mexican cartels get military weaponry from Central America
Latin American Herald Tribune - Mexican Cartels Get Heavy Weapons from Central America, U.S. Cables Say
Mexico: Economics and the Arms Trade | STRATFOR

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth | STRATFOR



So, there ya go. 90% of the weapons that we were given information about and can trace, a small fraction of the total seized, can be traced back to the US. The main source of US guns in the hands of the drug cartels is from guns we either gave 'em during Fast and Furious, or guns our gubmint gave the Mexican gubmint that they lost control of. Word among my former associates says the majority of the rest are traded up from the southern Mexican border, and that they tend to come in factory case lots from China and Russia. I can't cite you that though, don't ask. That tidbit cost me half a case of Bombay gin.

SECOND
A note about assault weapons. The definition you folks use makes me want to bite someone, you've been so brainwashed by the libtard smoothcrotch sackless media you'd think there were assault weapon baseball bats if they said it.

Assault Weapons at GunCite: gun control and Second Amendment issues has about the best definition for your needs.

A genuine assault weapon, as opposed to a legal definition, is a hand-held, selective fire weapon, which means it's capable of firing in either an automatic or a semiautomatic mode depending on the position of a selector switch. These kinds of weapons are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and are further regulated in some states. (See machine guns.)

this is opposed to the (now expired) "assault weapons ban" definition

However, current "assault weapon" legislation defines certain semi-automatic weapons as "assault weapons." A semi-automatic weapon is one that fires a round with each pull of the trigger, versus an automatic weapon which continues to shoot until the trigger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted. These kinds of "assault weapons" are sometimes referred to as military-style semi-automatic weapons.
An example of assault weapon legislation is the Federal 1994 Crime Bill. The bill in part outlaws new civilian manufacture of certain semi-automatic assault weapons. It also prohibits new civilian manufacture of "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" declared certain weapons as assault weapons, and states a semi-automatic rifle is an assault weapon if it can accept a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following:

• A folding or telescoping stock
• A pistol grip
• A bayonet mount
• A flash suppressor, or threads to attach one
• A grenade launcher.

(For the Crime Bill's definition of assault shotguns and pistols, a list of assault weapons, and further legal issues see Crime Bill FAQ.)
[The 1994 Crime Bill expired on September 13, 2004. See Semiautomatic Assault Weapon (SAW) Ban QUESTIONS & ANSWERS from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.]

tl;dr: 24% of the total guns seized had information reported to the US. 13% of the total guns seized were traceable by the US, and 11.6% of the total could be traced to the US. not 90%
it's called sampling error!
/rant
Edited to clear up the "all guns are semiauto" issue

Edited by LurkMode7.62, 20 September 2011 - 06:42 PM.

I dig it man, I am absolutely a gun fanatic. Nothing better then nailing them targets it'sjust plain ol fun. I'd like to get into some tournaments somtime, even if I don't I just like going out to my uncles farm and shooting at targets.

what you said to my post has like, nothing to do with what i said lol...i was saying the different laws are contradictory and confusing, you're telling me random shit that's not even true but you come off like it's true "all guns are semi automatic federal paperwork or not" i didn't say any of that shit at all, not all guns are semi auto and i didn't say anything about that...or their paperwork or federal laws. your associate... i bet he exists and is real reliable

So, there ya go. 90% of the weapons that we were given information about and can trace, a small fraction of the total seized, can be traced back to the US. The main source of US guns in the hands of the drug cartels is from guns we either gave 'em during Fast and Furious, or guns our gubmint gave the Mexican gubmint that they lost control of. Word among my former associates says the majority of the rest are traded up from the southern Mexican border, and that they tend to come in factory case lots from China and Russia. I can't cite you that though, don't ask. That tidbit cost me half a case of Bombay gin.

do you realize...your idea of fast and furious ( a few thousand guns) and being stolen from military and other places or mexicans black market..........is totally okay, no need to get all pissed at me over something i didn't say? i will point out though that all untracable guns, or 50% or 1% , could of been bought in USA..'straw purchase' where a guy goes to a gun shop, gun show, gun classifieds, and the laws are 18+ for long guns, and no registration or transfer required.

read the graph, 90% of the ones successfully traced anywhere, were to the USA. and that graph is from 2008...Fast and Furious has been going on since after 2008 too
/rant at you for ranting at me about nothing

Edited by iCremateCanabis, 20 September 2011 - 05:39 PM.

what you said to my post has like, nothing to do with what i said lol...i was saying the different laws are contradictory and confusing, you're telling me random shit that's not even true but you come off like it's true "all guns are semi automatic federal paperwork or not" i didn't say any of that shit at all, not all guns are semi auto and i didn't say anything about that...or their paperwork or federal laws. your associate... i bet he exists and is real reliable

do you realize...your idea of fast and furious ( a few thousand guns) and being stolen from military and other places or mexicans black market..........is totally okay, no need to get all pissed at me over something i didn't say? i will point out though that all untracable guns, or 50% or 1% , could of been bought in USA..'straw purchase' where a guy goes to a gun shop, gun show, gun classifieds, and the laws are 18+ for long guns, and no registration or transfer required.

/rant at you for ranting at me about nothing

not ranting at you dude, sorry. it's just that I have heard that stuff repeatedly, and took the time to clear up multiple items.
and there are plenty of revolver, break action, lever-action, and pump action guns. But there are very few legal, NFA-compliant, privately owned full-auto firearms in the usa.
either I'm so tired I didn't make any sense or we've got a failure to communicate
and my associates are very reliable.
many of them are still in the rock pile.
some of them have pulled my ass out of the crack before.
and every gun shop purchase, you get paperwork with your gun, that includes the firearm serial #
long arms are very very traceable

Edited by LurkMode7.62, 20 September 2011 - 05:42 PM.

uhh.. its easier to make an ar-15 automatic than it is to buy one. Cheaper as well.. done it, all it takes is a little gun knowledge and fabrication skills to make a small piece of metal. Shit is soooo much fun to shoot too

Ar is a shitty platform anyway.
if you're making it yourself, there are easier ones to make. look to WW2 history.
but that's as far as that idea goes in this thread so the mods dont' freak, k?

not ranting at you dude, sorry. it's just that I have heard that stuff repeatedly, and took the time to clear up multiple items.
and there are plenty of revolver, break action, lever-action, and pump action guns. But there are very few legal, NFA-compliant, privately owned full-auto firearms in the usa.
either I'm so tired I didn't make any sense or we've got a failure to communicate
and my associates are very reliable.
many of them are still in the rock pile.
some of them have pulled my ass out of the crack before.
and every gun shop purchase, you get paperwork with your gun, that includes the firearm serial #
long arms are very very traceable

getting paperwork and a box...duh
registering in your name....nope......keeping record of your ID and signature, yeah....but often times people use stolen identities or use their own but don't care to be contacted for a gun found at a crime scene because they're cartel members who don't care about a sentence for not reporting a stolen gun, and they're very likely out of the country by this time. the people doing this i'm sure are trained enough to get a lawyer and claim it was stolen and he didn't know or something. leaving your information doesn't register the gun, the manufacturer and gun shop will be the place it's registered through, and the shop will keep your information. lots of states, like Texas, you don't have to register a long gun, but you still give them your information...there's a difference

Why do you trust anything that Mexican "Authorities" say? They probably kept like 90% of the guns for themselves.

Edited by HongKongPhooey, 20 September 2011 - 05:54 PM.

Why do you trust anything that Mexican "Authorities" say?

cause the internet says so

and cause the ATF is involved



but nah, i trust if because it's an official report, not some report written by the policia down there being extorted or are into the cartels...of course that means the statistics by the real officials are a lot less reliable, but they aren't fabricated like the cartel-police could make them

cause the internet says so

and cause the ATF is involved



but nah, i trust if because it's an official report, not some report written by the policia down there being extorted or are into the cartels...of course that means the statistics by the real officials are a lot less reliable, but they aren't fabricated like the cartel-police could make them

"Official"? Like the 9/11 Commission was "official" too right?


I don't trust shit from either America or Mexico, both have reasons to lie, and if a government has a reason to lie it will.

mexicans exaggerating their violence doesn't give them jurisdiction to invade multiple countries in the middle east for natural resources....nobody has done shit for them....except ATF watched them take thousands home. there's no gain out of it...our country seems to always gain from their questionable actions and statements

What about ammunition?

Ar is a shitty platform anyway.
if you're making it yourself, there are easier ones to make. look to WW2 history.
but that's as far as that idea goes in this thread so the mods dont' freak, k?

lulz.. yeah a complete custom built AR-15 is a shitty platform

-guess i should mention all mine are custom built cuz my little brother is a gunsmith. (real gunsmith, not a tinkerer, his final school project was a complete gun built around a 336 lapua action)

mexicans exaggerating their violence doesn't give them jurisdiction to invade multiple countries in the middle east for natural resources....nobody has done shit for them....except ATF watched them take thousands home. there's no gain out of it...our country seems to always gain from their questionable actions and statements

You think Mexico has exaggerated violence? I suggest taking a trip along the border, even my Mexican friends can tell you its very, very violent right now in Mexico. Very dangerous, I'm pretty sure a cartel told a high school football team in America they needed to pay $30,000 just to cross the border and make it back safely. The Police actually work for cartels, and the military chills on the street and the violence is "exaggerated"? Lolz.

As far as no gain, how about keeping the guns for yourselves? More guns for the Mexican government = less they have to pay for. Plus it looks good for America if only 20% of the guns actually come from America, but I guess it doesn't matter if the Government and Police have American guns. Actually, where's the study on Mexican Government guns? Where do they come from? I'm going to guess 90% come from America.

What about ammunition?

what about it?
I was mainly trying to clear up the whole "assault weapon" thing and the "90%" of their guns come from us bullshit.

if you want to know about ammo, there are plenty of good books out there.
I ain't gonna spoon feed you.

Edited by LurkMode7.62, 20 September 2011 - 06:21 PM.

lulz.. yeah a complete custom built AR-15 is a shitty platform

-edited for content. Sod off LEO--

Well, a custom AR is pretty nice, but it takes a LOT on maintenance in the field, and it's pretty pricey.
for the same cheddar, I'll grab a Ruger mini-14, a ruger mini-thirty, and trick them both out with enough left for plenty of range ammo.
The Kalashnikov has the advantage of being nearly indestructible.

Remember, you're talking to a man who uses a mosin-nagant for an avatar
lapua? now I'm envious.

Edited by LurkMode7.62, 20 September 2011 - 06:20 PM.

getting paperwork and a box...duh
registering in your name....nope......keeping record of your ID and signature, yeah....but often times people use stolen identities or use their own but don't care to be contacted for a gun found at a crime scene because they're cartel members who don't care about a sentence for not reporting a stolen gun, and they're very likely out of the country by this time. the people doing this i'm sure are trained enough to get a lawyer and claim it was stolen and he didn't know or something. leaving your information doesn't register the gun, the manufacturer and gun shop will be the place it's registered through, and the shop will keep your information. lots of states, like Texas, you don't have to register a long gun, but you still give them your information...there's a difference

Agree to disagree?

Well, a custom AR is pretty nice, but it takes a LOT on maintenance in the field, and it's pretty pricey.
for the same cheddar, I'll grab a Ruger mini-14, a ruger mini-thirty, and trick them both out with enough left for plenty of range ammo.
The Kalashnikov has the advantage of being nearly indestructible.

Remember, you're talking to a man who uses a mosin-nagant for an avatar

Yes!! And the destructive power is incredible! People don't believe it when you tell them that you can shoot through steel and cinder blocks with ease when you have a K.

Do you know if that new Dragon Skin body armor can block AK rounds? I've heard that they could, though you're still not feeling that well after the hit.

may I advise against posting what you own though?
This is a weed forum.

may I advise against posting what you own though?
This is a weed forum.

I don't own shit I just live in Arizona