We are already at war with Iran

[aaronman]

Originally Posted by Gooch_Goblin69

Accualy he did withdraw lor is on a time table to withdraw troops from iraq

Our troops will never leave Iraq.

They will ignore the deadline indefinitely for security reasons. We built a 104 acre embassy there, I don't think we're ever leaving.

[Salmon of Doubt]

^ I totally agree. Why would we be disposed to think differently? We've been subjected to talk of removal, while the military budget is increased, and setting of deadlines, while we build American military infrastructure in Iraq.

There is no evidence to support that we will ever leave.

[letsgetPOD]

Al Qaida is terroizing the planet, we must stop them somehow, divert their CIA funding maybe, or something. The globalists create problems, which garner a reaction, and pose as saviors with a solution that benefits them, this is how the game works, every war has been fought for special interests, not in the name of freedom, that is bullshit, and you are an idiot if you think any wars were fought to spread democracy, that is the complete opposite effect that war has, but don't worry people, Obama already has everything under CONTROL!

[aaronman]

Clinton threatens to attack Iran "the way that we did" Iraq

[StoneColdChilla]

Peace is the only option with Iran, a war with them would be so messy you would never believe it.


Edit

Even though were pulling out there is still going to be a residual force of 50,000. Also were beefing it up in Afghanistan.

[Zylark]

Originally Posted by EbencoyE

You lost me there. Why would the Iranian government be against a large portion of their own people?

Unless you're confusing anti-semitism with anti-zionism... then you just need to read a dictionary.

Regardless, none of that has anything to do with American-supported terrorism. So you're okay with innocent people dying? Good to know.

I think the only backwards one here is you for thinking that a country is "crazy" just because they're religious. Behind in the times, perhaps, but what third world nation isn't? Afghanistan and Iraq are pretty "backwards" too. Maybe we should invade them? Oh wait.

First off, whilst it is true that Iran posess the largest Jewish population outside of Israel in the Middle-East, one should not glance over the fact that they live in dhimmitude as per sharia law. That means that they can not practice their belief openly, may not construct places of worship, have to pay an extra tax, and have to follow islamic law. The jews of Iran are in every sense second-rate citizens, and are entirely cut off from the rest of the jewish community, not to say the world.

Saying they live freely in Iran, is a bit like saying that the jews of the Warsaw-ghetto under WW2 was free. The intensity of the oppression is different, but it do not change the fact that they are oppressed.

Iran, or as it was known as in other times, Persia, have been a home for jews for at least 2500 years. Though hard to estimate, in pre-islamic times, the Jews of Persia was a very sizeable minority. Possibly numbering upwards of a million.

Though, after some 1400 years of oppression, by 1948, they numbered less than 100.000. At the time of the revolution that put the islamic theocrats in power, they numbered less than 80.000. Today, less than 25.000.

Islam is anti-semittic. That is a fact. Their prophet, the genocidal peadophile maniac himself, are described in the Quran performing genocide towards jewish settlements and cities he conquered. Don't believe me? Read the damn book. If you think the old-testament is horrible and dripping of blood, it reads like a childrens fairytale compared to the violence and callousness described in the Quran (Recitation of the word of Allah) and the Hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammed). You'll find english translations in most good bookstores, do read it, you will be aghast afterwards.

Need more? In 1994 and 99, their government published "The elder scrolls of Zion", a known Czarist forgery and a pamphlet the nazis found very valuable in their anti-semittic propaganda.

As for Ahmidinejad their current president "just" being anti-zionist, is nothing but a lie. He is a known anti-semite and holocaust denier. He have on several occasions referred to the holocaust as nothing but a myth, an allied ploy to facilitate a non-muslim state in what they (islamists) see as part of the Ummah, dar-al islam. House of islam (and anything not dar-al Islam, is dar-al Harb, house of war.).

In 2006, Iran even hosted a Holocaust conference. The invited speakers list, read like a virtual who's who of holocaust deniers.

The rethoric coming out of Teheran, have even promted other muslim states to distance themselves from Iran. In no short terms, the Saudies have told Ahmidinejad to shut his trap with regards to his overt holocaust denial and jew-hatred. Which he indeed have done in the last 2-3 years, in the sense that he now disguise his anti-semittism as anti-zionism, and when challenged give wolly disingenious replies that are very open to interpretation, neither denying nor affirming his statements made before being lectured by the Saudies.

Though, the Saudies had their own reason for this. Their brand of islam, sunni wahabism, is no less anti-semittic than what Ahmidinejad have spouted, but as it is, the Saudies rely on US military presence, money and weapon-supply and training to keep them in power. As such, they are more realpolitical, than ideological, at least with regards to official foreign policy.

Morocco have even expelled the entire Iranian embassy-staff, in an effort to distance themselves from the mad mullas that constitute the Iranian theocratic fascist regime.

The one and only political agenda Iran have, is to wipe Israel off the map. By proxy they already have an active war against Israel. They co-founded and continue to sponsor Hezbollah working out of Lebanon. They sponsor Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. And countless other islamic terror organizations.

When such a regime openly brag about enriching uranium to weapons-grade quality, and piles droves of money into rocket research, it is a safe bet it is not for peacefull purposes.

For one thing, at a fraction of the cost, they could secure all the electricity they want from oil or gas. But they have yet to invest in new such installations after the revolution in 1978. Infact, they've let much of their petro-chemical industry rot away by lack of maintanance.

Iran have a stated agenda, determined by religious fanatism. To wipe Israel off the map, and with it bring about the conflict that they think will enable the return of their messiah, the twelwth imam.

The Iranian theocratic regime is a bunch of criminal and crazy liars. And all they will ever bring their own people, not to mention the world, is misery, oppression, death.

If we do not act to remove that regime now, before it gets nukes, it will have to be done later. But then we have already payed a heavy prize for our folly of appeasement, and even more innocents will suffer for it.

[Raoul Duke II]

Originally Posted by Zylark

Islam is anti-semittic. That is a fact. Their prophet, the genocidal peadophile maniac himself, are described in the Quran performing genocide towards jewish settlements and cities he conquered. Don't believe me? Read the damn book. If you think the old-testament is horrible and dripping of blood, it reads like a childrens fairytale compared to the violence and callousness described in the Quran (Recitation of the word of Allah) and the Hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammed). You'll find english translations in most good bookstores, do read it, you will be aghast afterwards.

No it is not a fact. In fact, you are absolutely dead wrong. Islam is also a semetic religion so to say they are anti-semetic is completely ignorant and only an attempt to bring the sentiment of the Holocaust and of Neo-nazis to the debate. Semite is a language family that includes both Hebrew and Arabic.

And I have read the Qu'ran. In fact I keep it bookmarked just so when people start misquoting it, I can pull i out.

The Holy Qur'an

Please give me an example of when they slaughter jews because as far is I know, there isn't one. In fact, the Qur'an states several times that Jews and Christians are all muslims and that all three should live in peace as long as all use the guiding words in a way that promotes peace and good-will

"2.62": Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

and

"2.111": And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

"2.112": Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

"2.113": And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

"2.114": And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter.

"2.115": And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Ample giving, Knowing.

"2.116": And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him.

Yup, the qur'an sure does teach nothing but hate towards all those who aren't muslims

[Zylark]

Originally Posted by Raoul Duke II

No it is not a fact. In fact, you are absolutely dead wrong. Islam is also a semetic religion so to say they are anti-semetic is completely ignorant and only an attempt to bring the sentiment of the Holocaust and of Neo-nazis to the debate. Semite is a language family that includes both Hebrew and Arabic.

And I have read the Qu'ran. In fact I keep it bookmarked just so when people start misquoting it, I can pull i out.

The Holy Qur'an

Please give me an example of when they slaughter jews because as far is I know, there isn't one. In fact, the Qur'an states several times that Jews and Christians are all muslims and that all three should live in peace as long as all use the guiding words in a way that promotes peace and good-will



and



Yup, the qur'an sure does teach nothing but hate towards all those who aren't muslims

You are being very selective of your quotes, and are not aware of the law of abrogation in the Quran. What you are quoting is from the early-parts (chronologically, though the organization of the quran is a mess in that regard) of the Quran, the ones written whilst Muhammed was in Mecca (Mansukh verses). The later Medina parts (Nasikh verses) have replaced these tolerant passages, as any islamic scholar will tell you.

First the islamic law of abrogation:

Sura 2:106,108: We substitute one revelation for another

Sura 17:86: If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration

Sura 16:101: None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar-Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?

And from the latter part (Chronological) of the quran, the replacement verses that negate the previous tolerant verses, from when Muhammed went from preacher seeking acceptance, with very little success, to warlord seeking submission, with great success:

Sura 98:6: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Hadith 4:54:524: The Prophet said, "A group of Israelites were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But I do not see them except that they were cursed and changed into rats, for if you put the milk of a she-camel in front of a rat, it will not drink it, but if the milk of a sheep is put in front of it, it will drink it." I told this to Ka'b who asked me, "Did you hear it from the Prophet ?" I said, "Yes." Ka'b asked me the same question several times.; I said to Ka'b. "Do I read the Torah? (i.e. I tell you this from the Prophet.)"

Sura 5:51: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Sura 4:160: Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way.

Sura 9:30: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Hadith 1:52:177: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.

I could go on all day quoting quranic and hadith scripture that is specifically anti-semittic and more generally predicating death on all that do not submit to islam, but I'll leave off with the islamic prophets genocide of jews after a victorious battle:

Sura 33:26: And He brought those of the People of the Book [Jewish people of Banu Qurayza] who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts, some of them you slew (beheaded) and some you took prisoners (captive)

Sura 33:27: And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.

Hadith 4:52:280: When the tribe [jews] of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with the judgment of the King Allah.

Ofcourse, seeing as the Quran and Hadith is dripping of blood lust against all non-muslims, these are just a mere few examples to show the inherent anti-semitism islam is so full of, never mind the even worse hatred against polytheists and pagans (non-believers in any god).

At least the "people of the book", that is christians and jews, are allowed to live in oppressed state under islam, receiving dhimmi status, second rate citizens to be humiliated at every opportunity. That is, submit, convert or die. Pagans and polytheists on the other hand have only two choices, convert or lose their head.

Quite the religion, huh?

(edit: I am aware that arabs are also a semittic people, but in de-jour parlance, anti-semittic is to be understood as jew-hating. So please stop arguing semantics)

[Raoul Duke II]

Originally Posted by Zylark

You are being very selective of your quotes, and are not aware of the law of abrogation in the Quran. What you are quoting is from the early-parts (chronologically, though the organization of the quran is a mess in that regard) of the Quran, the ones written whilst Muhammed was in Mecca (Mansukh verses). The later Medina parts (Nasikh verses) have replaced these tolerant passages, as any islamic scholar will tell you.

First the islamic law of abrogation:



And from the latter part (Chronological) of the quran, the replacement verses that negate the previous tolerant verses, from when Muhammed went from preacher seeking acceptance, with very little success, to warlord seeking submission, with great success:



I could go on all day quoting quranic and hadith scripture that is specifically anti-semittic and more generally predicating death on all that do not submit to islam, but I'll leave off with the islamic prophets genocide of jews after a victorious battle:



Ofcourse, seeing as the Quran and Hadith is dripping of blood lust against all non-muslims, these are just a mere few examples to show the inherent anti-semitism islam is so full of, never mind the even worse hatred against polytheists and pagans (non-believers in any god).

At least the "people of the book", that is christians and jews, are allowed to live in oppressed state under islam, receiving dhimmi status, second rate citizens to be humiliated at every opportunity. That is, submit, convert or die. Pagans and polytheists on the other hand have only two choices, convert or lose their head.

Quite the religion, huh?

(edit: I am aware that arabs are also a semittic people, but in de-jour parlance, anti-semittic is to be understood as jew-hating. So please stop arguing semantics)

Justification of conquest of Babylon:

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

The destruction of Nineveh by the israelis:

For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight! The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to collapse! Nineveh's exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)

Justification of Jewish conquest of the Canaanites:

"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

and

After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

The conquest and enslavement of the Canaanites:

The tribe of Benjamin, however, failed to drive out the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem. So to this day the Jebusites live in Jerusalem among the people of Benjamin. The descendants of Joseph attacked the town of Bethel, and the LORD was with them. They sent spies to Bethel (formerly known as Luz), who confronted a man coming out of the city. They said to him, "Show us a way into the city, and we will have mercy on you." So he showed them a way in, and they killed everyone in the city except for this man and his family. Later the man moved to the land of the Hittites, where he built a city. He named the city Luz, and it is known by that name to this day. The tribe of Manasseh failed to drive out the people living in Beth-shan, Taanach, Dor, Ibleam, Megiddo, and their surrounding villages, because the Canaanites were determined to stay in that region.
When the Israelites grew stronger, they forced the Canaanites to work as slaves, but they never did drive them out of the land. The tribe of Ephraim also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, and so the Canaanites continued to live there among them. The tribe of Zebulun also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron and Nahalol, who continued to live among them. But they forced them to work as slaves. The tribe of Asher also failed to drive out the residents of Acco, Sidon, Ahlab, Aczib, Helbah, Aphik, and Rehob. In fact, because they did not drive them out, the Canaanites dominated the land where the people of Asher lived. The tribe of Naphtali also failed to drive out the residents of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath. Instead, the Canaanites dominated the land where they lived. Nevertheless, the people of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath were sometimes forced to work as slaves for the people of Naphtali. As for the tribe of Dan, the Amorites forced them into the hill country and would not let them come down into the plains. The Amorites were determined to stay in Mount Heres, Aijalon, and Shaalbim, but when the descendants of Joseph became stronger, they forced the Amorites to work as slaves. (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

The Wars against Ethiopia:

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

The justification of the Destruction and enslavement of the 7 heathen nations:

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

More:

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

Like the Bible doesn't have plenty of pillage and murder? You seem to be selectively quoting too. I chose tolerant ones, and you chose intolerant ones. The same could be done with any religion and we could go on all day doing it with the Qur'an. And that's the whole point. People can selectively choose what they want from any text. Some will take the peaceful and some won't. Any solidified, organized religion is only here because of the intolerant ones. By saying you are the follower of the true god, it is much easier to convince people to mass-slaughter people for no real reasons. And to say something chronologically replaces another in the Qur'an is bullocks. It's not in chronological order and it isn't meant to be. It's in order by length.

[aaronman]

I think the differing social/political/economical climates of Christian and Muslim societies is what creates the animosity. Not solely religion.

Christian/Western culture won in the grand scheme of things, and the East is resentful. We weren't exactly fair in our rise to power either.

[Raoul Duke II]

Exactly

[Zylark]

Oooooh, the smoke and mirrors tactics, quoting abbhorations from the old testament in order to divert attention from the cruelty of the quran.

Two wrongs do not make a right you know.

First things first, I am not a defender of the bible. You can quote bible verses to me until you run out of steam, I will not attempt to justify them.

But there is a difference in the two. Wheras the bible do tell of atroceties, it do not teach it as doctrine, something to be followed. The quran do.

Furthermore, apart from some fringe lunatics, jews and christians do not act on those verses. Islamists on the other hand, do. And islamists are not the fringe in islam, it is the vocal force that represent islam.

I see very little "moderate" muslims crying out against the atroceties carried out in the name of islam. Whenever some christian lunatic do an atrocity however, more moderate christians almost step over eachother to distance themselves from it.

Furthermore, you won't find christian terrorcells plotting nefarious plots agains innocent civilians in muslim countries. You do find however a plethora of terrorcells of the islamist kind doing all kinds of jihad against the first and best infidels they can strike at. Quoting the quran in the aftermath as justification when they brag about their misdeeds.

Strange how islam lends itself so readily to terror. No other religion do.

And aaronman, you are wrong to think this is a conflict between the west and islam only. Hindus of India suffer as well under islamist threat of terror. Buddhist all over Asia do to.

What have ever buddhist done against muslims to incite such hatred?

You think the conflict is economic/political, because that is how we westerners see the world. That is not how the true believers of islam see the world. They could care less. Let us not forget, that most terrorist acts done by muslims in the west, are done by well educated and by no-means materially suffering fanatics. They were given every and all chances and ability to do well in our society, but they rejected it, instead blowing themselves and innocents up in the name of holy war. Jihad.

The muslim world is not the only one we in the west have fucked around with. India was as much colonized as Iran or the Arabian peninsula. Yet, you've never read of Hindu terrorbombings against Europe or the US, have you?

And India/Hindus is almost as big as the muslim world, and do not posess the oil-wealth the muslim world do.

The difference is in the religion, the culture. India embraced the best of our culture, whilst keeping their cultural traits in a modernized form so as to be a partner in the world of politics and economics.

The muslim world by and large did no such thing. They blame all their misery on external forces, ignoring the elephant in the room. That their backwardsness and poverty is due to their (religious) leaders that keep all the wealth to themselves and keep the population at large as serfs.

All due to the sad stranglehold that the fascism that is islam holds over its populace. They need to break free from their spell, and work on their own societies. Not try to ruin ours.

[DaleGribble]

Originally Posted by Raoul Duke II

No it is not a fact. In fact, you are absolutely dead wrong. Islam is also a semetic religion so to say they are anti-semetic is completely ignorant and only an attempt to bring the sentiment of the Holocaust and of Neo-nazis to the debate. Semite is a language family that includes both Hebrew and Arabic.

While that is technically correct, anti-semitism in todays vernacular refers to jews alone.

Originally Posted by Raoul Duke II

Please give me an example of when they slaughter jews because as far is I know, there isn't one. In fact, the Qur'an states several times that Jews and Christians are all muslims and that all three should live in peace as long as all use the guiding words in a way that promotes peace and good-will
:

Wow. You really proved your ignorance regarding the history of Islam here.... While the Quran does mention Christians and Jews as better than pagans because they are "people of the book", you need to look up the word dhimmi. Muslims throughout history have slaughtered various ethnic groups including Christians and Jews. If you think the what the Quran says equates to literally what Muslims have done, you are sooooo blind.
Zylark is incredibly correct, +rep to him

[Raoul Duke II]

Originally Posted by Zylark

Oooooh, the smoke and mirrors tactics, quoting abbhorations from the old testament in order to divert attention from the cruelty of the quran.

Two wrongs do not make a right you know.

First things first, I am not a defender of the bible. You can quote bible verses to me until you run out of steam, I will not attempt to justify them.

But there is a difference in the two. Wheras the bible do tell of atroceties, it do not teach it as doctrine, something to be followed. The quran do.

Furthermore, apart from some fringe lunatics, jews and christians do not act on those verses. Islamists on the other hand, do. And islamists are not the fringe in islam, it is the vocal force that represent islam.

I see very little "moderate" muslims crying out against the atroceties carried out in the name of islam. Whenever some christian lunatic do an atrocity however, more moderate christians almost step over eachother to distance themselves from it.

Furthermore, you won't find christian terrorcells plotting nefarious plots agains innocent civilians in muslim countries. You do find however a plethora of terrorcells of the islamist kind doing all kinds of jihad against the first and best infidels they can strike at. Quoting the quran in the aftermath as justification when they brag about their misdeeds.

Strange how islam lends itself so readily to terror. No other religion do.

And aaronman, you are wrong to think this is a conflict between the west and islam only. Hindus of India suffer as well under islamist threat of terror. Buddhist all over Asia do to.

What have ever buddhist done against muslims to incite such hatred?

You think the conflict is economic/political, because that is how we westerners see the world. That is not how the true believers of islam see the world. They could care less. Let us not forget, that most terrorist acts done by muslims in the west, are done by well educated and by no-means materially suffering fanatics. They were given every and all chances and ability to do well in our society, but they rejected it, instead blowing themselves and innocents up in the name of holy war. Jihad.

The muslim world is not the only one we in the west have fucked around with. India was as much colonized as Iran or the Arabian peninsula. Yet, you've never read of Hindu terrorbombings against Europe or the US, have you?

And India/Hindus is almost as big as the muslim world, and do not posess the oil-wealth the muslim world do.

The difference is in the religion, the culture. India embraced the best of our culture, whilst keeping their cultural traits in a modernized form so as to be a partner in the world of politics and economics.

The muslim world by and large did no such thing. They blame all their misery on external forces, ignoring the elephant in the room. That their backwardsness and poverty is due to their (religious) leaders that keep all the wealth to themselves and keep the population at large as serfs.

All due to the sad stranglehold that the fascism that is islam holds over its populace. They need to break free from their spell, and work on their own societies. Not try to ruin ours.

It's no smoke and mirror tactic. I'm no more of a justifier of the violent parts of the Qur'an than you are the violent parts of the Bible. And you are wrong that it is "doctrine" in the muslim world while not in the Jewish/christian nations. We have more wars, more genocides, and more secret coups and blood-baths than any muslim nation(Many of the muslim genocides were pushed forward by Western outlets).

And we don't need "terrorcells" as you put it. We have a powerful military that is willing to do the same things that you say the "terrorists" want to. The use of the word terrorist is only a way to discredit people's beliefs without actually listening to the causes of those beliefs. Small bands of Geurilla fighters are the only way to fight a massive, technical army. Hell, look at American history. We did the same things and we were called terrorists and pirates by the british.

As far as the Indian example, yes there was. They bombed and kidnapped as many British as the Muslims do Westerners in general. You just weren't alive when it was happening. Colonization of India(which had much more versatile and useful resources than the middle east), however, ended a while (albeit, corporate control is still there) back while the exploitation of the Middle East is still going on.

And as far as the Buddhists, they are no innocents either. Buddhist history is just as violent as any other religion.

And why do you feel that the Arabs and Persians need to be a part of the "global economy?" They obviously don't want to. They've been resisiting it as far back as Alexander. Globalization is no new force like modern capitalists want you to believe. The West has been wanting to trade with the East and vice versa throughout human history.

[DaleGribble]

Originally Posted by Raoul Duke II

And why do you feel that the Arabs and Persians need to be a part of the "global economy?" They obviously don't want to. They've been resisiting it as far back as Alexander. Globalization is no new force like modern capitalists want you to believe. The West has been wanting to trade with the East and vice versa throughout human history.

Islam was built on international trade. The Middle East in general is perhaps the general culture MOST associated with commerce.