Direct Socialism[RANT]

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

I am tired of being told that Communism is not Socialism, but for the purpose of debate, I will disregard any mentioning of communism in this thread.

This thread made by me is a direct attack on the idea of socialism, I belive that in a socialistic society, everybodies property is nobodies property.

Let me explain, Wealth that is free for all is valued by none because he who is foolhardy enough to wait for its proper time of use will only find that it has been taken by another.

Socialism in all forms is the WEAK preying upon the STRONG.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.

The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Socialism is the idea that the work of a man does not belong to him but to society, for the greater good of all. The only justification to his existance is to serve society, that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of what it deems to be it's own collective good. Socialism is the denial of individuals rights to property, which is a denial that you have the right to own the values and property which you produced by your own efforts, and decide of how to despose of them as you wish. That is the core value of all socialism.

Furthermore, democratic socialist hold a very similar moral principle that the mafia holds, that moral priniciple is the idea that it is appropriate on their part to initiate force in order to exporiate your property for there own use.

Individuals in a socialist society do not have rights to there own lives or there own property.

A socialist will talk and say that they are for the love of there fellow man, but in all actuality they stand agianst love of there fellow man. They view the individuals if left alone to do business with each other and pursue there own lives will do corrupt and evil things, this stands agianst all of what human nature stands for. They view that human nature is not of love and benevolence, but instead of corruption. They use this to take upon themselves the power of government to force you into their world.

To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'"
-Thomas Jefferson, considered one of the greatest American presidents, A TRUE Democrat

"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."
-Ayn Rand, a famous author who lived in a socialist society for many years, she is considered one of the most influental writers of the 20th century by NY times

"We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and start worrying about what is best for society...We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004.

“The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more.”
-Michelle Obama, the wife of quite possibly the next president of the United States of America

Capitalism works and is the best society because it is the only society that can properly combat Statism, which Socialism holds in it's values, furthermore I do not advocate the state intervening in personal, social or economic matters of it's peoples when the rights of a man are upheld.

[Zylark]

Ever take a peek at the nordic model? A nice little blend of state heavy regulated capitalism. Works wonders too. Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all pretty high ranked on all international statistics that matter. Like education, health and wealth.

Societies that care, outperforms societies that don't. It might cost some more in taxes, but when it comes right down to it, very few here would want to live in a predatory purely capitalist dystopia.

Empathy is not just an empty word were I am from. It is governing policy. Not saying it is executed perfectly, but at least they're trying.

[wackdeafboy]

no matter what
Societies will always be there..till the end of humans...
then the cats and dogs will rise and they will create new Societies

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

Originally Posted by Zylark

Ever take a peek at the nordic model? A nice little blend of state heavy regulated capitalism. Works wonders too. Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all pretty high ranked on all international statistics that matter. Like education, health and wealth.

Societies that care, outperforms societies that don't. It might cost some more in taxes, but when it comes right down to it, very few here would want to live in a predatory purely capitalist dystopia.

Empathy is not just an empty word were I am from. It is governing policy. Not saying it is executed perfectly, but at least they're trying.

You guys lag far behind us in Gross Domestic Profit, which mostlikely has to do with the fact that you are a much smaller country and that you Private Comsumption is very small compared to the United States...

I could be wrong though.

[Zylark]

Originally Posted by IGOTJOINTS4YA

You guys lag far behind us in Gross Domestic Profit, which mostlikely has to do with the fact that you are a much smaller country and that you Private Comsumption is very small compared to the United States...

I could be wrong though.

If you measure GDP per capita, you'd be surprised:

NOR: 53000
USA: 45000
DK: 37000
SW: 36000
FIN: 35000

(rounded to nearest thousand USD, latest figures from 2007)

Two little comments though. first, Norway is flowing with oil-money. Without it we'd be more on the level of Sweden, our dear friends and favourite hate-object Secondly, the US GDP is much influenced by being the financial hub, and do not reflect the real eceonomy. Remember, GDP only measures money exchanging hands. Not industrial production or mean standard of living.

Here is a nice site showing the result of how we the nordic spend our money.

As an example, literacy at high levels (read: higher education):

1. Sweden 35.5%
2. Norway 29.4%
3. Denmark 25.4%
4. Finland 25.1%

The US, 9th place @ 19%

Sweden

The Best Country in the World! Listed as the 6th best country in the United Nations Human Development Report 2005. Sweden in 1919 was part of the general European rush towards female emancipation, although it was not a world leader in equal votes for women it was still one of the first 10% of the world to arrive there. In modern times, Sweden has the best record for gender equality across a range of issues. It has the worlds' sixth highest life expectancy. The Economist Quality of Life study states that Sweden is the fifth best place to live. From 2001 to the 2003-2004 and 2006 reports, the World Economic Forum has shown Sweden is consistently the third most economically competitive country. Its government was the first, in 1987, to recognize same sex partnerships. One of the least obese countries (10.4% of the population, perhaps 8th least obese in the developed world). Sweden has the best 'high literacy' rate in the world, and not just by a small margin! For a developed country, Swedes do not smoke much and do not drink much; both far less than Western averages. Sweden ranks top in allowing open access to scientific research. In 2005, out of the worlds' most developed countries, Sweden was fourth most generous in giving aid to developing countries, and in 2006 was the 3rd best country for the poor. It has the 7th lowest level of computer software piracy. Transparency International finds Sweden to be the joint fourth for lack of corruption.

Denmark

Only listed as 14th in the world by the United Nations Human Development Report, Denmark is nonetheless a consistent high-ranker in many of the moral issues examined on this page. The World Economic Forum lists Denmark as the 4th most equal country in terms of gender, and was beaten by only four other countries in the historical granting of equal votes to women. The Economist's World in 2005 survey had Denmark rank as the ninth best country for quality of life. The fourth most competitive economy. Gay rights were attained in the 1990s, beaten only by a handful of states. One of the least obese countries in the world. The 3rd best country in the world for high adult literacy. One of the best countries towards the environment; one of the best recyclers. Open Access to scientific research speeds up scientific discovery and advances humanity, Denmark is the 7th most open country in the world. When it comes to accepting asylum seekers, Denmark accepts more than anyone else (74%). It also gives aid third most generously, and does not tie its aid in to its own economy. The Center for Global Development says that Denmark is the second best country at helping the poor of the world. Denmark has the fifth lowest rate of computer software piracy. Transparency International rates Denmark as (jointly) the least corrupt country.

Norway

Impressively listed as the best country in the United Nations Human Development Report every year since 2001. The fourth country to allow women the same voting rights as men, in 1913 and coming in 2nd best in the world for gender equality overall. The 12th best life expectancy in the world. The third best country to live in for quality of life. One of the world's most economically competitive countries, coming in annually around 6th (2003-2004) and 12th (2006). It was the second country to officially recognize same-sex marriages, granting almost full legal equality for gay partnerships in 1993. Impressively Norway is the fourth least obese developed nation in the world, only 8.3% of the population are obese. Norway has the second highest high literacy level in the world, second only to Sweden. Norway gives a higher percentage of its National Income as foreign aid than does any other country, and was the 4th best country for the poor in 2006.

Finland

Listed as the 13th best country in the United Nations Human Development Report 2005. One of the first countries to give women equal votes with men, beaten only by New Zealand and Australia in 1893 and 1902 respectively. Judging by a range of criteria Finland is in modern times the fifth best country for gender equality. 19th best life expectancy. The most economically competitive country according to the 2001, 2003, and 2004-5 reports from the World Economic Forum (and 2nd place to Switzerland in 2006), with the USA as their hottest contender and previous title-holder. Finland was not one of the first countries where legal equality for homosexuals were attained, but in 2002 it is still ahead the majority of the countries in the world that have not yet got there. Perhaps one of the least obese countries, 10th or so in the developed world. Finland is the fourth best country in the world for high literacy. Open access to scientific research is beneficial to humanity; Finland is the sixth most open country in the world. The 7th best country for the world's poor, in 2006. It has the 4th lowest computer software piracy rate. Transparency International rates Denmark as (jointly) the least corrupt country.

All due to something we like to call social democracy. It borrows a bit from both worlds, capitalism and socialism. And it works too.

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

Our CIA would like to disagree with what you said, it could be biased, or what you posted could show some bias, either way they contradict each other.

[Zylark]

Unless you measure your GDP per capita, your little maps is worthless. Ofcourse more money are floating around in the US, it is a bigger country. But divided up per citizen, it's not all that impressive. Your maps don't do that.

And furthermore, it says nothing of the quality of life. According to your chart, Russia and China, hell, even India, is as just as good as the US. You don't really think that is so, do you?

(learn statistics and how to interpret them, before making such a gaffe again...)

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

Originally Posted by Zylark

Unless you measure your GDP per capita, your little maps is worthless. Ofcourse more money are floating around in the US, it is a bigger country. But divided up per citizen, it's not all that impressive. Your maps don't do that.

And furthermore, it says nothing of the quality of life. According to your chart, Russia and China, hell, even India, is as just as good as the US. You don't really think that is so, do you?

(learn statistics and how to interpret them, before making such a gaffe again...)

When the World Economy is based on GDP Per Person, Luxembourg and Equatorial Guinea will be able to buy the world.

[Zylark]

My dear statistics challenged friend, this isn't about measuring dicks, or in this case, which country have the most money exchanging hands per annum. That is not how you measure a societies wealth or effectiveness.

China is a big country, if you just measure GDP it ranks really high with 3200 billion USD. Divide per capita though, and you get the not so nice number of about 5300 USD per head.

Norway to compare have 391 billion USD in GDP, but a whopping 53000 USD per head.

Or to put in perspective, China circulates near 10 times the amount of money Norway do in a given year, 2007 in this case, but the average Norwegian makes 10 times more than your average Chinese.

See the difference? Beginning to dawn on you how economies should be compared? Not just put all in one big pile and compared dicks, but divide up per capita to see how the economy is working for everone living in it.

Oh, and FYI, the EU is the worlds largest economy. 16.6 trillion per year, compared to the US 13.8. In case you were wondering. And none of the EU countries follow your pure capitalism idealized disaster of an ideology. But then again, neither do the US, so, mute point really.

[EbencoyE]

What's so bad about working for a society as compared to working for yourself?

I would rather live in a society where everyone tried to better themselves for the good for human life as a whole than to constantly be trying to take advantage of human life for personal gain.

Equal sharing of misery? Yeah, a shame you wouldn't be able to have all five of those Hummers. Living modestly, what a hell on earth!

Go live in the forest if all you care about is yourself. We won't miss your greed.

If you choose to live in a society, then you should be a team player and live only to a necessary extent and be willing to better the lives of others if you have that ability.

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

Originally Posted by Zylark

My dear statistics challenged friend, this isn't about measuring dicks, or in this case, which country have the most money exchanging hands per annum. That is not how you measure a societies wealth or effectiveness.

China is a big country, if you just measure GDP it ranks really high with 3200 billion USD. Divide per capita though, and you get the not so nice number of about 5300 USD per head.

Norway to compare have 391 billion USD in GDP, but a whopping 53000 USD per head.

Or to put in perspective, China circulates near 10 times the amount of money Norway do in a given year, 2007 in this case, but the average Norwegian makes 10 times more than your average Chinese.

See the difference? Beginning to dawn on you how economies should be compared? Not just put all in one big pile and compared dicks, but divide up per capita to see how the economy is working for everone living in it.

Oh, and FYI, the EU is the worlds largest economy. 16.6 trillion per year, compared to the US 13.8. In case you were wondering. And none of the EU countries follow your pure capitalism idealized disaster of an ideology. But then again, neither do the US, so, mute point really.

The EU is not one country, so its capital is not split between it's people, only it's face of currency is what is shared, so your point is meaningless. How much does a tank of Gasoline cost(USD if possible) in Sweden?

EDIT: Sorry I ment sweden before.

I just want to get a grasp on what your cost of a common goods are compared to capital aloted per person...

[Zylark]

You are asking for a meaningless comparison. You cannot look at gas prises alone, or any other commodity. You need to look at price of commodities as a percentage disposable income.

As such, eventhough gas is expensive here (gross price plus about 100-150% in various taxes, varies to keep prices stabil), as a percentage of income, norwegians use less on gas than most the rest of Europe, and these days, even less than the US.

What you're trying to do is to compare apples and oranges. Not really working.

Oh, and the EU is an economy. The largest. It is a union of many seperate economies with a common currency. Like the US.

[IGOTJOINTS4YA]

Originally Posted by Zylark

You are asking for a meaningless comparison. You cannot look at gas prises alone, or any other commodity. You need to look at price of commodities as a percentage disposable income.

As such, eventhough gas is expensive here (gross price plus about 100-150% in various taxes, varies to keep prices stabil), as a percentage of income, norwegians use less on gas than most the rest of Europe, and these days, even less than the US.

What you're trying to do is to compare apples and oranges. Not really working.

Oh, and the EU is an economy. The largest. It is a union of many seperate economies with a common currency. Like the US.

The EU is a UNION of different countries under one monitary system, America is a collection of seperate STATES that hold allegiance to one country through it's monitary system. If what you were saying was true than the EU would be controlled by some sort of federal system that has executive powers over all your countries, which is not the case.

Why is it that you disregard my statement about Luxembourg?

If we are gaging economic might on capital per person, Luxembourg got you guys beat...does that make them a better country than you.

Furthermore you brought up your neighboring countries capital per person, the US based corporations General Motors, Walmart and Exxon Mobil have more worth than Norway and Finland does. Intern making them more powerful than those countries.

[Zylark]

You don't know much about much do you? The EU is a collection of nations who have harmonized their economies and collected it under one big umbrella with a common currency and a common central bank. That makes the EU the worlds largest economy regardless of other factors.

I've explained to you now twice why when comparing how economies function with regards to effectiveness and distribution of resources, you need to look at GDP per capita and other data. A nations purchasing power is irrelevant in that regard.

This thread started with you dismissing socialism. I showed you a system that takes the best from both worlds, socialism and capitalism and mix it together for the best of all people in that economy. Something called social democracy. You can also call it responsible regulated capitalism if you wish. Or nudered socialism. Whatever tickles your fancy.

All you've responded with is "the US got a larger GDP, therefore you suck!" kind of playground argument. I've never contested that the US got a larger economy than most other, save the EU. Larger countries (or unions of countries) do tend to have larger economies than smaller ones. Doesn't say squat about how an economy is run or how effective it is or how it works for its citizens though.

I've demonstrated that the nordic model in many regards is superior to capitalism alone. And certainly better than socialism alone. You've yet to comment on that.

[Perpetual Burn]

If you make $53,000 in Norway you will pay 51.6% of your paycheck to the government. And that's the lowest tax bracket- the highest is 54.3%. That would mean you get to keep $25,652.

If you make $45,000 in the United States you will pay 25% of your paycheck to the government. That means you get to keep $33,750.

Then, to factor in that the cost of living in Norway is 30% higher than the United States; you could either say Norwegians only get to keep $17,957 or Americans make $43,875... depends on how you want to look at it.

Besides, how well do you think the Norwegian economy would hold up if two million Mexicans showed up at your doorstep every year?