"freedom freedom freedom freedom freddom freedom"

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

so i ask, how do we stop bush from pusshing ih religions' views on freedom to others? (that is fanatism, last time it happend it was called crusades, and was one of the bloddiest time of our history (propartionaly to the means of destruction available)

I didnt know we were converting them all to christianity. Thanks for another grand nugget of information.......

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

*:no gilligan, i wont argue over that one again, rent the movie "independant media in a time of war", the demosntration is quite understandable, even for americans, no pund intended)

Ah yes, in a trilogy with "Voices Against War"

Sounds unbias eh?

Sounds like a left-wing dvd set if you ask me............

[Gri77oN]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

I didnt know we were converting them all to christianity

never said so myself.

bush has a certain value of freedom, he feels his god has asked him to push that value all over where needed (that's in his speeches).

please, Gilligan humor me:

how does Humanity stops this man?


please note:
i am not asking because i think we /should/ (stop him)
i am asking because there seems to be no way to stop him.

...


so .. how?

[Gri77oN]

it ain't a movie it 's a documentary, that is asking some quite scary questions.
questions gilligan, you, the guy whom watches the doc get to choose the answers.
(choice, again, always)

[Gilligan]

Well. Lets see.

We went into iraq on false intelligence. False intelligence from many nations. In my opinion, with false intelligence, Iraq is the the process of rebuilding. I kind of view it like their American Revolution, We wouldnt have won without the French. We are a little more involved, but i see many similarities.

Bush cant go to war without a majority vote congressional vote. I think it would be pretty tough for him to go again, with the false intelligence we as a nation went in with this time, it will be hard not to think, if there is a next time, that that information could be false.

On the same token, its hard to trust the UN now, with all the corruption that has recently been found there.

I guess next time theres a tyrant, responsible for using WMDS on hundrads of thousands of people, toying with the UN for over a decade, skamming them for billions of dollars to build bigger palaces, ruleing by terror and fear, we will have to see.

"It is better to die fighting for freedom than it is to live as a slave"
Do you think their happier without Saddam?
Do you think the world, or at the least the middle east and iraq is better with out him? They are on the road to stability. That is something alot of people dont want to happen. That would make it a success. Success for America or Bush seems to be bad.

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

it ain't a movie it 's a documentary, that is asking some quite scary questions.
questions gilligan, you, the guy whom watches the doc get to choose the answers.
(choice, again, always)

F 9/11 is a documentry. It is also proof a documentry can be used to promote a certian agrenda.

[Gri77oN]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

F 9/11 is a documentry. It is also proof a documentry can be used to promote a certian agrenda.

damit that's the only thing that americans remember from the movie.

yes it is propaganda, used to do exaclty the opposit of the gov propaganda.

you know why Moore has to use propaganda? because that the only thing that gets you people moving.

hell look at me !!!

---------------------

the congress.... wait those are the same that voted the patrioc act, (those that don't read... ?)

oh shit. now we're doomed.

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

you know why Moore has to use propaganda? because that the only thing that gets you people moving.

hell look at me !!!

Nah, he has no substance so he has to make up some. fifty something lies. He said Bush waited 7 minutes, it has been proven he waited 5 before he took action. If fatboy cant get the small details right, he sure doesnt get the big picture.

Im glad your finally admiting to using propaganda to get us moving. Lies are always better than the truth.

I dont believe alot of what the government tells me because they have lied. I dont believe what Moore says for same reason.

Any type of media can be bent, its view skewed, to stress a certian side. No media is unbias, someone writes, produces, or directs it. Everyone has their own views.

[sidious]

are we talking about the same Sadaam that America put in a place of power to use these supposed WMS's on the Kurds??

only one place the blame lies as far as the rest of the world is concerned.........you go messing with other countries affairs, the end result may not allways turn out the way it was intended.

and no Iraq is less stable than it ever has been, and all the Iraqi people are rebuilding id their own homes destroyed by Us and UK sorties....................Peace out.......Sid

[grass roots]

I wan't to know what government you think is better than the one in the United States. Sure, we have our problems, who doesnt? It's still the freest country in the world...

I don't particuarly like Bush, i voted for nader. and do you know how we are going to get rid of bush? in four years you'll see...

Before you try and make it look like america is some domineering war-hungry nation, look at europes history. imperialism? yeah...

and no Iraq is less stable than it ever has been, and all the Iraqi people are rebuilding id their own homes destroyed by Us and UK sorties....................Peace out.......Sid

"We soldiers have women with their children coming up and kissing our hands. They call us "the saviors." Seeing women and children show that kind of emotion and say those things to us...it made me cry."
-Sergeant Maloney Stuff Magazine Feb. Issue.

"In my civilian life, I'm a architect. In Iraq, I'm working on building schools and creating educational and recreational programs for Iraqi kids in the 12- to 18-year-old range. Baghdad is a big city, more than five million people. We created soccer and volleyball teams from 92 neighborhoods. The object is to keep the kids active and doing positive things rather than, well, other things that might not be so positive. What i've experienced in Iraq is that people are most concerned about themselves. So being on a team, that basic concept of working with others, is foreign to them. Introducing an idea like that to these kids- you just hope that it makes a difference in their lives."
- Lieutenant Colonel Kim Myran Stuff Magazine Feb. Issue.

I think the soldiers know what they're talking about more than someone who most likely has never been to Iraq. These soldiers are giving new life to these people, i can only hope that i can impact other people in such a great way as these men and women are by rebuilding Iraq.

I don't think we should have gone into iraq, but what can change that now? what im trying to say is, how can you think the people in iraq have it worse now that the US is there? atleast we're making it a better place...

[Gri77oN]

Originally Posted by grass roots

I wan't to know what government you think is better than the one in the United States.

the tibetan governement: it's leader is tought tolerance since 5years old.

oh wait, tibet is not a member of the UN, so i guess that doesn't coundt hey ...


---------------------

95% of the weapons used in warfare today are sold by the five permantent members of the UN. (so yes france is part of them) that fact is disgusting.

the so called five more important gov in the world make money on selling weapons.


----------------------

there is one difference though about the us gov from others govs:
the US gov has publicaly said it will impose whatever they wan "with force if necessary" ; and we all know that us has the biggest bombardement capabilities.

THAT makes the US danger number one.

[sensimil]

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

say, americans, aren't you oppressed by your gov... ?

who said that??

*looks around*

[Grim Bongmaster]

I was meandering around the internet, as I love to do, and I came acrosst this. This man has such a unique way of saying things. I suppose because he is a foriegner who migrated to the states. It reminded me of this thread somewhat so I decided to post it here. I also have started far to many threads in the box, and I didn't feel this topic deserved it's own thread so haha

I attended the 2004 World Affairs Council weekend retreat at Asilomar -- it was an interesting event and I'll likely do my best to go there again this year.

One discussion I recall was about the relative role of the Pentagon in nation building and many types of overseas developments. This being the Bay Area in particular, you could probably imagine the sheer fury that our panel of military Civil Affairs specialists received from the erstwhile do-gooders in the audience. If I recall correctly, one commentator was quoted as "you can't help someone while you're waving a gun in their face."

Well, I suppose there's a certain logic to that. By contrast, any regular reader of mine would probably guess that I'm sympathetic to the complex interplay between society and military and find attempts - like this one - to separate the 2 pretty tenuous. It's not that I necessarily want this to be the case so much as I basically accept that there really are wolves out there and they are often right around the corner.

So, you could probably guess that I was also sympathetic when I came across this article describing NGO's vs. Special Forces in Afghanistan at StrategyPage.com -

January 10, 2005: The government estimates that there are 100,000 tons of military munitions in the country, and is finding and destroying most of it (some is given to the army). Already, some 5,000 tons have been taken care of in Herat province alone. In addition, hundreds of heavy weapons (tanks, APCs, artillery, anti-aircraft guns and mortars) have been collected. None of the warlords have tried to hang on to this stuff, mainly because they know the Americans can spot it from the air, and use smart bombs to take if out if anyone refuses to cooperate. So far, the national government has not gotten any serious resistance from the regional warlords. American troops continue to maintain good relations with most Afghans by, performing lots of reconstruction work and chasing down bandits and other troublemakers (like the Taliban). American Special Forces have used their diplomatic skills to work with local leaders and avoid raids or attacks on the wrong people. Lots of Afghans wander around carrying weapons, as they have for centuries, so American troops can’t just go out and attack any Afghan with a gun. There is, however, a problem with banditry, another ancient Afghan customs. NGOs have become favorite targets, because of their obvious wealth (at least compared to most Afghans), and the fact that they (unlike the military Civil Affairs troops) don’t carry guns. While NGOs often hire local security, the bandit gangs simply bring along more firepower. The NGOs have SUVs, computers and satellite phones, all popular items with Afghans. There are 300 international, and 1,500 Afghan NGOs operating throughout the country. The victims of the attacks are usually Afghan, not foreign, employees of the NGOs. Last year, 24 NGO employees were murdered during these robberies, compared to 13 in 2003.

In a contest between folks who are Armed and those who are Armed only with Good Intentions, I'll put my money on the former every time.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE - interesting, related anecdote on Instapundit -


Today, during an afternoon conference that wrapped up my project of the last 18 months, one of my Euro collegues tossed this little turd out to no one in particular:

" See, this is why George Bush is so dumb, theres a disaster in the world and he sends an Aircraft Carrier..."

After which he and many of my Euro collegues laughed out loud.

And then they looked at me. I wasn't laughing, and neither was my Hindi friend sitting next to me, who has lost family in the disaster.

I'm afraid I was "unprofessional", I let it loose -

"Hmmm, let's see, what would be the ideal ship to send to a disaster, now what kind of ship would we want?

Something with its own inexhuastible power supply?

Something that can produce 900,000 gallons of fresh water a day from sea water?

Something with its own airfield? So that after producing the fresh water, it could help distribute it?

Something with 4 hospitals and lots of open space for emergency supplies?

Something with a global communications facility to make the coordination of disaster relief in the region easier?

Well "Franz", us peasants in America call that kind of ship an "Aircraft Carrier". We have 12 of them. How many do you have?

Well said.

http://www.vinod.com/blog/News/Pentagonvs.State.html

[Gri77oN]

nice quotes.


+++

still:


an aicraft carrier is first a /weapon/, then a hospital.

thank you, you have made my point.

[grass roots]

Originally Posted by Gri77oN

there is one difference though about the us gov from others govs:
the US gov has publicaly said it will impose whatever they wan "with force if necessary" ; and we all know that us has the biggest bombardement capabilities.

THAT makes the US danger number one.

danger number one for who though? you?

we're a threat only to terrorist organizations that threaten our well-being. do you think American's want another 911? of course not, thats why bush is willing to use force to keep someting like that from happening again.

when fanatical terrorists start blowing up your buildings, tell me how you want your government to respond...

[mooglekexin]

not just terrorist organisations but whole countries are being destroyed, by all means go after the terrorists, not a whole country though, some of the terrorists in the 11/09 (or 9/11 to use the american terminology) were from the UK, gonna come after us?