Bush is a fucking idiot

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by BadCompany

okay, I read more of your link...

criticism...

1) it incentifies spending less.
2) it still is a retail flat tax... not progressive... so the middle class would pay more because the rich don't need to spend ALL there money....
3) it don't specicy what 'retail' is... does it inlcude food products? does it include only consumer goods in stores? why wouldn't a rich man go to china to shop for gucci and save 23%, when a poor man can't afford to travel to china? does it include 'investment income', 'service income', 'rental income' alll which are normally NOT tax under sales taxes? how does it handle and define wholesale vs retail? would we pay 23% to buy wholesale, then when we resell it we would pay ANOTHER 23%?
4) it simply shifts the tax budern to 'retailers'.... so all the taxes in the whole nation will be paid for SEARS, COSTCO, or 'retailers' (who now are only a SMALL part of business)...
5) if the definition of retial is not well defined... it could mean that rich people who make money selling widgets to SEARS pay NOTHING... but the SEARS would pay all the taxes and pass them to consumers....
6) If we get rid of income tax, it will only be a few years before they reinstate it because they are broke and need to balance the budget... so we will end up with BOTH like in Europe.
7) I don't understand who it taxes accumlated wealth....

I want to continue...

8) does it tax unrealized gains... say my house/stock investment value goes up 100%.. do I have to pay taxes on it? If not, then rich people can shelter HUGE gains... if it DOES, than the middle class will have to pay for increases in the house values... what about unrealized losses?

[Gilligan]

I DO AGREE, IT DOES REWARD THOSE WHO SPEND LESS BUT AMERICANS SPEND MONEY AND IF THEY HAVE MORE MONEY THE TREND WOULD BE THEY WOULD SPEND AS MUCH OR MORE. IT ALSO SAYS THAT PRICES WOULD GO DOWN 20-30% SO ADD THE 30% TAX AND THINGS WOULDNT COST VERY MUCH MORE.

http://www.fairtax.org/research.asp?pageid=21 IS A LIST OF DIFFERENT PROFFESSIONS FROM HEALTHCARE TO RETAILERS TO RANCHERS. IM READING THEM NOW, BUT THOSE MIGHT HELP ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.

ABOUT MAUFACTURING, IT SAID IT WOULD BRING BACK ALOT OF MANUFACTURING TO AMERICA. IT SAID IT WOULD BE CHEAPER NOW TO MANUFACTURE HERE.


I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT. TYPACLLY PEOPLE WHO ATTACK REP ARE DEM. BUT THE DEMS HAVE NO POWER, SO WHY ATTACK THEM.
I FEEL THEIR LACK OF POWER IS GOING TO MAKE THEM PULL ANYTHING THEY CAN TO WIN IN NOVEMBER.

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

I DO AGREE, IT DOES REWARD THOSE WHO SPEND LESS BUT AMERICANS SPEND MONEY AND IF THEY HAVE MORE MONEY THE TREND WOULD BE THEY WOULD SPEND AS MUCH OR MORE. IT ALSO SAYS THAT PRICES WOULD GO DOWN 20-30% SO ADD THE 30% TAX AND THINGS WOULDNT COST VERY MUCH MORE.

yes, but different businesses would PAY it... for example, sears (retailers) would have to pay all the taxes for the entire nation replacing everybody elses taxes... wholesalers and manufacturers wouldn't pay any taxes... no one would pay any taxes until we buy something at the supermarket or sears or whatever retailers.... so it saves the manufacturers all of their taxes they used to pay and transfers it to SEARS.... why? It would hurt retailers bigtime since they would pay all the taxes...

Yet, do you really think manufacturer will LOWER their prices... no they would just make more money for the stockholders... I don't trust manufacturere to give their profits to consumers...

http://www.fairtax.org/research.asp?pageid=21 IS A LIST OF DIFFERENT PROFFESSIONS FROM HEALTHCARE TO RETAILERS TO RANCHERS. IM READING THEM NOW, BUT THOSE MIGHT HELP ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.

ABOUT MAUFACTURING, IT SAID IT WOULD BRING BACK ALOT OF MANUFACTURING TO AMERICA. IT SAID IT WOULD BE CHEAPER NOW TO MANUFACTURE HERE.


I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT. TYPACLLY PEOPLE WHO ATTACK REP ARE DEM. BUT THE DEMS HAVE NO POWER, SO WHY ATTACK THEM.
I FEEL THEIR LACK OF POWER IS GOING TO MAKE THEM PULL ANYTHING THEY CAN TO WIN IN NOVEMBER.

I am not sold on the tax... because it radically shifts the tax burden and will cause great confusion and huge loopholes....

[BadCompany]

ITS A FRAUD... I just read something that made my spine tingle and I realize that this bill is for the rich by the rich....

IT DONT TAX INVESTMENT OR INTEREST INCOME... so a rich bazzillionaire can invest his money in a bank and it is never taxed.... and he can make a trillion dollars in interest and it won't be taxed until he spends it at SEARS, or some other retailers... that SUCKS...

another thing is it don't tax ANY BUSINESSES COSTS... in other words a business can buy yachts, and lavish parties with NO TAXES... it only taxes individuals who buy things, not businesses... THAT IS DUMB... any rich man would simple buy all his stuff via his business...it happens now so it would get worse if this law passes.. for example every business owner I know buys his car in his business... regular workers can't deduct their cars... huge abuses would open for businesses... this law totally eliminate taxes on business and investment income and transfers it to individuals who buy things at retail stores....

ITS A DISASTER... so I FUCKING HOPE THEY MAKE IT LAW.... america would crash and that is what I want anyhow....

he he....

[Gilligan]

HMM ROOTING FOR AMERICA TO FAIL.
I dont think thats what it said man. I hate that i cant copy and paste from pdf so i could just paste it on here.


http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/small%20businesses.pdf
http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/investment.pdf


Also, try this one http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/wages.pdf

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

HMM ROOTING FOR AMERICA TO FAIL.

http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/small%20businesses.pdf
http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/investment.pdf

I have admitted to being an antiamerican anarchist and wants the federal govt to fall in place of a confederacy.... what else can I say...

in your link it says that ONLY consumer sales would be taxes... and all the business would pay NO taxes, even small businesses....

The problem with Dale Jorgenson from Harvard is he simply writes articles about how great it would be for everybody to NOT pay any taxes.. and he establishes how if no one paid any taxes, all businesses would grow.... and in every situation he claims 'simply' that all taxes would be paid at the retail level.... like the state sales taxes are now levied...

However, its the SAME tax burden but just shifted to consumers instead of business..... imagine that... all rich people would no longer be taxed on investment/interest income... all business would no longer be taxed at all... only when the consumer walks into the store will any taxes be levied... and he says it is about 23% in sales taxes is all that is needed...

What would happen is that consumer spending will DECREASE by 23% when the taxes set in... it will cause a HUGE DEPRESSION (even 1% in spending decreases cause economic problems)....people will be forced to spend 23% less on other consumer things...businesses would NOT lower their prices since they want more profits.... poor people would get a break (since they get a refund)... rich people get a break... businesses get a break... and the middle class consumer pay it all... but they would find that everything cost 23% more so they would only be able to buy 23% less things....

all the rich people will make money hand over fist at first until the decline in consumer spending is felt.

Good luck, I really do hope you get this passed ; )

[Gilligan]

"Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with no end in sight."

"For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers. They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while working families struggle to pay their taxes."

Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts -- you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government can be provided better and cheaper by private business."

"Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least $100 billion a year in taxes."

"The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back on their feet."

Before i explain this, cost would go down 20-30%, add the tax and the prices would basicly level out. not paying income tax would give you even more money to buy products that have not risen very much in price. ( to answer ur previous post)
Investing would sky rocket, thus expanding business, thus adding new jobs, thus giving more people money, thus more people with money = more spending.




If we reduced the size of govt, the size of the social programs, all of these needless govt angencies, we would save alot of money.

Add a national sales tax, which would make our economy boom, create many jobs, bring industry back from overseas, would make ALOT of money and everyone would be paying it, not just workers, not just the rich.

Im sure there would be some loop holes, there are with everything, and i would like a few revisions of this current idea as well, but a national tax is the best, the most fair way to pay taxes.

[BadCompany]

your link on investment says alot about how great it would be it there was no taxes... but it don't say much else...

AND read the one about interest rates... it clearly states that no interest income would be taxed nor would ANY income be taxed... including income made from stock holding gains or other 'investments' or anything but RETAIL sales... ONLY RETAIL SALES would be taxes...

So I can buy a stock and makes $300K with no taxes... only if I buy something in a RETAIL store, would it be taxed...

[Gilligan]

............................

I said i would like some revisions in this plan as well.

Investment would grow, business would grow, jobs would be created, more people would have more money, forign industry would come here, basicly making our economy boom.

goods will not go up very much if at all. All the money businesses were having to pay in taxes, which makes cost rise, they will not be paying, making prices drop. Add what, 23% tax to it, and the prices are basicly the same.

More people with more money would buy more stuff, yes?

We cut some govt agencies, reform or cut our social programs, cut the size of govt, we would be saving money. Add that to our booming economy, and i think it would work fine.

Just wondering, with all that money ur making, what are you gonna do with it? i would imagine you would have to buy stuff with it? food, clothes, gas, entertainment, cars, etc.

It also taxes services, which i noticed you have not mentioned.

But, if we had it my way, we would legalize weed, save money fighting the war on drugs, make billions from the weed we could now tax, plus all the other hemp products, which would clear out our jails with the non violent drug offenders.

That, with shrinking govt and a rising ecomony caused by the sales tax, would work.

We could take our milatery out of nations such as Germany and Japan, giving us more resources to fight the war we are currently in.

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

"Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with no end in sight."

"For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers. They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while working families struggle to pay their taxes."

Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts -- you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government can be provided better and cheaper by private business."

Amtrak runs trains and they do have govt subsidies, but they ARE private business... saving and loans are private businesses... houses are constructed by private businesses, not govt (although the govt subsidizes private companies to build low income housing via tax credits)...insurance is private business and they are huge... book publishers are private businesses... and the NBA is not socialized but sometimes local govt help to subsidize private business...

Shouldn't your link really say that subsidizing private business is wrong?.... Instead, it concludes that things are better done by private business after giving examples of private business failures... that is an illogical fallacy...

I mean the USA uses private constractors for EVERYTHING... they nationalize very little... (unlike in the great depression when the govt DID do things directly and created things like HOOVER DAMN)... if anything the same argument can be used for socializing things...

For example, why have private 'trains' that require subsidies instead of the govt running the business directly... why have private 'savings and loans' that need govt bailouts instead of govt owned banks? etc. etc.

"Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least $100 billion a year in taxes."

who cares about Germany and Japan... but the US military is well known to pay outrageous prices for things like hammers...

"The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back on their feet."

I know a guy on welfare.. he gets about 400 per month and that ain't shit... his wife gets welfare... social security fraud should be fought against... but overall, the total welfare tab is only about 5% of our tax load....

Before i explain this, cost would go down 20-30%, add the tax and the prices would basicly level out. not paying income tax would give you even more money to buy products that have not risen very much in price. ( to answer ur previous post)
Investing would sky rocket, thus expanding business, thus adding new jobs, thus giving more people money, thus more people with money = more spending.

why would it go down... just because business pay no taxes?
will there be a LAW to force business to lower their prices?

If the US govt gives MY business (of which I am controller treasurer) a tax break... I will say thank you and spend on new staff... I will NOT lower my prices at all.... thank you very much...

If we reduced the size of govt, the size of the social programs, all of these needless govt angencies, we would save alot of money.

Add a national sales tax, which would make our economy boom, create many jobs, bring industry back from overseas, would make ALOT of money and everyone would be paying it, not just workers, not just the rich.

Im sure there would be some loop holes, there are with everything, and i would like a few revisions of this current idea as well, but a national tax is the best, the most fair way to pay taxes.

Go for it... I want the US to implement this... its stupid but you know what I said about the US govt... go for it I am rooting for you...

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

Just wondering, with all that money ur making, what are you gonna do with it? i would imagine you would have to buy stuff with it? food, clothes, gas, entertainment, cars, etc.

I like to travel to europe... like I did last year... I will go again this year... I spend about 10K in europe each year....

I eat like a pauper.. .hamburger and noodles... vegatables

I don't to go movies and don't buy a new car.... I smoke dope and watch TV... and save for my retirement in europe and my european vacations....

[Gilligan]

Socializing things didnt get us out of the depression, the war did.

You take advantage of our system and spend the money in europe. good for you, but i call you a hyprocrite. You want america to fail, you love europe, but you couldnt make the money you make anywhere else. You hate america but u use it for your persoanl gain. You only visit europe not live there because you are greedy and you know you wont be able to make near as much, then you couldnt constently tell us in every post how rich u are.

You are also not the voice of american business, just b/c you wouldnt lower your prices, the company that did would put you out of business.

You live here, you will have to buy things. Not everyone sits in their house smoking all day. Alot of people get out, go do things, go buy things. If everyone was like you, America would have already went under. Alot of people do go to movies, go buy new cars, they are the ones stimulating the economy. They are the same people who will buy the same amount, if not more if we had a national sales tax.

You have to get rid of your bias agaisnt business, stop thinking their all evil. If a business cut cost by 30%, it could lower prices and/or hire more workers. They could raise the price 7%, and with the 23% tax the good would still cost the same. They would also be creating new jobs, thus giving more money to people so they could go out and spend it.

Under my plan, the weed you smoke would be taxed, along with the food you eat, the clothes you buy, etc. You would still be paying for this country you hate so much, yet you use to your advantage.

[Grim Bongmaster]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

Socializing things didnt get us out of the depression, the war did.

You take advantage of our system and spend the money in europe. good for you, but i call you a hyprocrite. You want america to fail, you love europe, but you couldnt make the money you make anywhere else. You hate america but u use it for your persoanl gain. You only visit europe not live there because you are greedy and you know you wont be able to make near as much, then you couldnt constently tell us in every post how rich u are.

You are also not the voice of american business, just b/c you wouldnt lower your prices, the company that did would put you out of business.

You live here, you will have to buy things. Not everyone sits in their house smoking all day. Alot of people get out, go do things, go buy things. If everyone was like you, America would have already went under. Alot of people do go to movies, go buy new cars, they are the ones stimulating the economy. They are the same people who will buy the same amount, if not more if we had a national sales tax.

You have to get rid of your bias agaisnt business, stop thinking their all evil. If a business cut cost by 30%, it could lower prices and/or hire more workers. They could raise the price 7%, and with the 23% tax the good would still cost the same. They would also be creating new jobs, thus giving more money to people so they could go out and spend it.

Under my plan, the weed you smoke would be taxed, along with the food you eat, the clothes you buy, etc. You would still be paying for this country you hate so much, yet you use to your advantage.

Wow..wish I didn't have to sleep through all of this. You made some great points gilligan..I especially like this one

"then you couldnt constently tell us in every post how rich u are." --classic!!

Originally Posted by Gilligan

"Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with no end in sight."

"For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers. They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while working families struggle to pay their taxes."

Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts -- you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government can be provided better and cheaper by private business."

"Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least $100 billion a year in taxes."

"The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back on their feet."

quotes from my favorite website nice!

Shit dude, you did a hell of a lot better job debating this than I would have done.

sorry about the flaming..I was tired..and a little cranky

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by BadCompany

What would happen is that consumer spending will DECREASE by 23% when the taxes set in... it will cause a HUGE DEPRESSION (even 1% in spending decreases cause economic problems)....people will be forced to spend 23% less on other consumer things...businesses would NOT lower their prices since they want more profits.... poor people would get a break (since they get a refund)... rich people get a break... businesses get a break... and the middle class consumer pay it all... but they would find that everything cost 23% more so they would only be able to buy 23% less things....

all the rich people will make money hand over fist at first until the decline in consumer spending is felt.

Good luck, I really do hope you get this passed ; )

I want to change what I wrote here... I don't think spending would decrease by 23%.... NOT that I think prices would be lowered by 30% like you do.... but nobody would pay any taxes so they would have more disposable income... so they can pay the higher prices... but I don't feel prices would go down and the WOULD go up by 23%, but since the consumer has more money consumer spending would NOT decrease by 23%... yet, the consumer would save much of his new money in investment... (which is NOT tax under you link)... so spending would still go down because consumers would shop for better bargains and save much of their new funds....

[BadCompany]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

Socializing things didnt get us out of the depression, the war did.

who said socializing things got us out of depression... I didn't... however, socializing the means of production for war equipment DID win us the war.. and FDR did exactly that... he nationalized almost every industry for war cause...

You take advantage of our system and spend the money in europe. good for you, but i call you a hyprocrite. You want america to fail, you love europe, but you couldnt make the money you make anywhere else.

DUDE, I CAN MAKE AS MUCH MONEY IN THE UK... wait.. MORE... they have accountants too and houses and stores and jobs... america ain't the only nation with jobs... duh...

How am I taking advantage of 'our' system??? almost every nation on earth has 'accountants'... and schools.... what advantage did I take of America... I pay taxes, more than you.... I PAY FOR THIS CRAPPY USA TO BAN ME AND MAKE ME ILLEGAL AND SEEK TO JAIL ME... screw them.

You hate america but u use it for your persoanl gain. You only visit europe not live there because you are greedy and you know you wont be able to make near as much, then you couldnt constently tell us in every post how rich u are.

so fucking what if I am greedy, but I ain't... EUROPE IS JUST DAMN BETTER, next time you see pulp fiction it will explain it to you... what makes you think I won't make as MUCH? I have studied the UK market and its ME that earns MY wage, not the flag....

in fact, I can get a UK job in the london market and MAKE MORE... esp if you consider that one pound is worth 1.8 dollars...

You are also not the voice of american business, just b/c you wouldnt lower your prices, the company that did would put you out of business.

think about it... so the government give JOE gardner a tax break... you think he will instantly go around and tell all his customers that he is going to charge them $70 vs $100 like he used to charge...

USE COMMON SENSE.... that is what I mean... people will have more money from their paychecks under your scheme since no taxes will be taken from their checks.. why would business want to LOWER their prices when everyone has more money? however, I still say people would save and spend less to avoid ANY taxation at all... and if you try hard enough, American can and will be able to avoid paying the sales tax.... for example, order on the internet direct from CHINA...

You live here, you will have to buy things. Not everyone sits in their house smoking all day. Alot of people get out, go do things, go buy things. If everyone was like you, America would have already went under. Alot of people do go to movies, go buy new cars, they are the ones stimulating the economy. They are the same people who will buy the same amount, if not more if we had a national sales tax.

I am saying it will shift the tax burden in ways we don't understand... those that save money won't just go spend it since product will cost MORE....and business will pay NO taxes... do you really think that is so freakn smart that all businesses would pay NO taxes... funny???

As I said do it... I WANT IT TOO... just because of the utter chaos it would create...

don't get all huffy because people don't accept your stupid tax plan...

You have to get rid of your bias agaisnt business, stop thinking their all evil. If a business cut cost by 30%, it could lower prices and/or hire more workers. They could raise the price 7%, and with the 23% tax the good would still cost the same. They would also be creating new jobs, thus giving more money to people so they could go out and spend it.

I have no bias against business you have a bias to get rid of all their taxes... I simply think Big business and all business should pay their share of the taxes and not pass it all to the consumers... eghad man...

Under my plan, the weed you smoke would be taxed, along with the food you eat, the clothes you buy, etc. You would still be paying for this country you hate so much, yet you use to your advantage.

no, I PERSONALLY am moving to Europe in two years... if I can get a visa and migrate to the UK... the nation I hope to make my new country.... my goal is to be an EU citizen and hopefully end up in Amsterdam, my Israel...

who cares what your stupid tax laws are.... I support your dumb idea because it will cause chaos and big business will pay NO taxes and it will be so freakin funny when the revenue don't pan out like Dale Jorgenson beleives.... in fact, I might just write my senator to support it...

hahahhahhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa