Organic Magnesium...

What can I add (before planting) to prevent a magnesium problem in the Roots Line?

What can I add (after the plant is established) when I see signs of magnesium deficiency?

For the record I am experiencing both a calcium and magnesium deficiency (which is a common problem when using Roots Organics) , but I plan to use oyster shell flower to add to the plants soil when I transfer them from 2 to 7 gallon pots.

What ever I use, must not piss of the micro-organisms. And I have been using General Organics cal-mag at a rate of 10ml/gal with all water.

What ever I use, must not piss of the micro-organisms.

The Micro Herds are considered sacred here. Fear not for we would never lead you down the road to the vast wasteland that is the heritage of the Petro Chemical War Lords.

Very first thing to do is source some high quality ewc's and apply a top dressing and make a tea.

Then find out which botanical tea will help best and make some up and apply as a foliar if you are not in 12/12.

Edited by WeeDroid, 17 January 2012 - 04:14 AM.

TLO,

If it were me, I would just top dress with some quality EWC/vermicompost. There will be plenty of Ca and Mg in the vermicompost to augment the minerals already in your soil.

Properly made compost and good EWC will have been fed plant based materials that are rich in minerals. Combined with the microbes in the compost/EWC, the plant will have the tools available to nourish itself, if so needed.

Honestly, more often than not, Ca/Mg deficiencies are misdiagnosed and are more often imbalances in the microbiology of the soil.


chunk

Lots of ways to get magnesium. Like mentioned good compost is número uno, and having mag problems is god's way of telling you to get quality compost (vermi). Epsom salt works quick as a spray, sul po mag, it's in some botanicals, dolo lime, and most any mineral supplements have mag. So it's not like it's rare, lol.......MIW

What can I add (after the plant is established) when I see signs of magnesium deficiency?

TloGrow

The overwhelming majority of 'Magnesium problems' come from gardeners trying to fix something that doesn't exist in the first place - i.e. they overload their soils with Magnesium which causes a huge range of problems.

The other challenge you're facing comes form using products with the Cal-Mag products. Magnesium is water soluble (Epson Salts, Sul-Po-Mag, K-MAG) but Calcium is not unless it's artificially chelated which it is in these products using Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) and this agent brings another level of problems and in particular at the rates suggested for the actual product to fix these mysterious cal-mag issues.

Take the other's advice - compost, EWC, botanical tea, etc.

HTH

LD

Magnesium in the Soil

Magnesium is a component of several primary and secondary minerals in the soil, which are essentially insoluble, for agricultural considerations. These materials are the original sources of the soluble or available forms of Mg. Magnesium is also present in relatively soluble forms, and is found in ionic form (Mg++) adhered to the soil colloidal complex. The ionic form is considered to be available to crops.

Function

• Photosynthesis: Mg is the central element of the chlorophyll molecule.
• Carrier of Phosphorus in the plant
• Magnesium is both an enzyme activator and a constituent of many enzymes
• Sugar synthesis
• Starch translocation
• Plant oil and fat formation
• Nutrient uptake control
• Increase Iron utilization
• Aid nitrogen fixation in legume nodules

Factors Affecting Availability

• Soil Mg content: Soils inherently low or high in Mg containing minerals
  
• Soil pH: Low soil pH decreases Mg availability, and high soil pH increases availability
• Soil Mg:Mn ratio: High available Mn can directly reduce Mg uptake. This may be independent of the acid conditions normally associated with excess available Mn in the soil.
• Soil CEC: Low CEC soils hold less Mg, while high CEC soils can hold abundant Mg. However, if a high CEC soil does not happen to have strong levels of Mg, it will tend to release less of the Mg that it holds to the crop.
• Cation competition: Soil with high levels of K or Ca will typically provide less Mg to the crop
• High cation applications: High application rates of other cations, especially K, can reduce the uptake of Mg. This is most common on grasses, and corn seems to be the most sensitive grass.
• Low soil temperatures

Interactions

• Other cations: Being a major cation, Mg availability is related to the soil CEC, and it is in competition with other major cations such as Calcium (Ca++), Potassium (K+), Sodium (Na+), Ammonium (NH4+), Iron (Fe++), and Aluminum (Al+++). It appears that potassium is a stronger competitor with Mg than it is sometimes considered to be. We have frequently seen that whenever the soil K level is higher than desired, or when the soil K:Mg ratio (in lb./acre) is above 1.5:1 (or the soil Mg:K ratio is less than 0.67), plant Mg levels are reduced. This effect occurs sooner and more severe in grasses, especially corn, than in other crops. It may seem inconsistant to list a specific numerical K:Mg ratio, when we earlier stated that specific numerical ratios are not valid. However, we are simply stating that Mg problems are more frequent or severe when the soil K:Mg ratio exceeds 1.5. We are not claiming that there is an ideal K:Mg ratio.
• Phosphorus: Phosphorus uptake is often enhanced when applied with Mg fertilizers. However, mixing some liquid or suspension sources of P and Mg can lead to a reaction can result in the formation of a large amount of precipitated material, to the point of near solidification of the mixture.
• Sulfur: Sulfur leaching is often increased where supplemental Magnesium is applied

Deficiency Symptoms

The classic deficiency symptom is interveinal chlorosis of the lower/older leaves. However, the first symptom is generally a more pale green color that may be more pronounced in the lower/older leaves. In some plants, the leaf margins will curve upward or turn a red-brown to purple in color. Full season symptoms include preharvest leaf drop, weakened stalks, and long branched roots. Conifers will exhibit yellowing of the older needles, and in the new growth the lower needles will go yellow before the tip needles.

[cite]

TloGrow

The overwhelming majority of 'Magnesium problems' come from gardeners trying to fix something that doesn't exist in the first place - i.e. they overload their soils with Magnesium which causes a huge range of problems.

The other challenge you're facing comes form using products with the Cal-Mag products. Magnesium is water soluble (Epson Salts, Sul-Po-Mag, K-MAG) but Calcium is not unless it's artificially chelated which it is in these products using Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) and this agent brings another level of problems and in particular at the rates suggested for the actual product to fix these mysterious cal-mag issues.

Take the other's advice - compost, EWC, botanical tea, etc.

HTH

LD

I appreciate your input, and down the road my end goal is to grow in the method that you are saying, but currently I am using roots organics full line. their line ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT contain any EDTA, or any synthetic salts (I am informed enough to know not to use those) The cal-mag that I am using is from General Organics.

General Organics (0-0-0) Cal-Mag contains:
Calcium (Ca) ... 5.0%
Magnesium (Mg) ... 1.0%

Derived from: Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate.

Also contains non-plant food ingredients:
10% fermented molasses
2.5% cane sugar

The Rev in skunk magazine uses this stuff. I would prefer to use the things you listed, but would I overdose the plant on nitrogen while trying to help the mag problem(1-0-0)? and what botanicals please? (wouldn't the botanical have to be grown in a soil abundant in Mag in order to contain mag? so how would I know which one does?), I can buy compost (or that it contains sufficient levels of magnesium, but that will not provide me with any proof that it actually is good compost, I do not currently make compost, I live in the city, about 2 miles from Detroit, so there isn't a ton of room for that sort of thing. I think your right on, but with my current grow I'm not sure how realistic some of those are at 8 weeks into the grow, and without several of the resources you mentioned (I have been using worm castings by the brand "wiggle worm" are they any good?). If you could help me figure out what botanicals, and what worm castings are good, as well as a source for "good" compost.

Like I said, my goal was from the start to learn via Roots Organics (while adding the LIVING element, and following True Living Organics guidelines (no EDTA/synthetic salts ever!, no PH'ing of teas, no chelates like humic acid or synthetic chelates, etc.), and than switch to a living organic soil mix using dry amendments instead of bottles. But I had to start simple. So let me know if you have the time, hopefully I didn't piss you off by my disagreement over the calmag (perhaps you are not aware of this product?) The General Hydroponics synthetic Cal-Mag contains EDTA, but not the General Organics Cal-Mag)

Here is a list of what I have used for Veg (at 8 weeks, going into flower shortly): Roots Organics Buddha Grow, Trinity, Extreme Serene, Ancient Amber bubbled in a tea w/ General Organics Ancient Forest (ancient humus) to inoculate my teas, with beneficial bacteria, archaea, fungi, Protozoa, nematodes, etc., and General Organics Cal-Mag (no chelates other than a little un-sulfured molasses). Coco Chips as mulch, and I top dress some "Wiggle Worm" Worm castings, kelp meal, and yerba mate to help with fungi/microbes. The soil is Roots Organics Indoor/Outdoor, cut with 1 tbsp/gal azomite (next time I plan to add some oyster shell flower, or thanks to your post crab meal! Lastly, my soil PH is 6.6 measured via a clean soil ph meter

PS: will Yerba Mate suffice as a "botanical tea"

Edited by TloGrow, 18 January 2012 - 01:59 AM.
Soil Ph? (calcium carbonate is NOT water soluble, whoops)

Spin it anyway that you want - Calcium is an alkaline earth metal. Ask 'The Rev' how he is able to liquify this metal with straight water. Laughable. Even a 10th grade chemistry student knows that isn't possible.

See the Magnesium Carbonate component? That's from Dolomite Lime. What you have is micronized Dolomite Lime with sugar and water.

Good purchase!

LD

EWC= earth worm castings? Or earth worm compost?

Spin it anyway that you want - Calcium is an alkaline earth metal. Ask 'The Rev' how he is able to liquify this metal with straight water. Laughable. Even a 10th grade chemistry student knows that isn't possible.

See the Magnesium Carbonate component? That's from Dolomite Lime. What you have is micronized Dolomite Lime with sugar and water.

Good purchase!

LD

The Rev did not say it's soluble, my mistake, I just looked it up, hence the correction. I called General Organics, and asked if it's soluble and got the incorrect answer, but in their defense their techs had gone home, the lady asked my question to the last remaining tech just before heading out the door, and the lady on the phone perhaps did a poor job of asking my question. Were you being sarcastic about the product being good?

Listen to them. I just had a phosphorous problems at week 5 with ammended roots 707 soil. These guys saved my ass. Read up on CEC. EarthWormCastings top dress and feed with fpe or teas.

If you havent planted then top dress and do some LST or topping. Roll your own soil and let it sit for 3 weeks. Then transplant.

You can always buy the bottles and get yourself through. Read stickies and educate yourself, then you'll look at your bottles and feel like a chump.

The Rev

is a joke imo.

is a joke imo.

I disagree, there is a lot to learn from the rev, and guys like lumperdogz 2, and you wee droid, you see, NO ONE is right all of the time, and you can learn something from everyone. You act as if he has no knowledge worth sharing, pickup the mag, and you might be surprised.

So, I topped my soil w/ some roots worm castings (I already had them and they appear to be very high quality because of what they fed the worms), and the "wiggle worm" brand apparently is shit. And I also made worm tea using 1 cup worms, 1 tsp molasses, and 3 tbsp oyster shell flower (I sure hope thats not too much, please let me know ifyou think it may be), and bubbled that in 2.5 gal of reverse osmosis and carbon filtered water.

Lastly thank you everyone for your help, I learned a lot today. If you could find the time, please let me know what botanical herbs and at what rate, work for magnesium issues.

And let me know if you have tried Yerba Mate?

i like drinking yerba mate. mmmm yerba mate.

If Calcium were water soluble then it sure would play havoc on the skeletal systems of mammals, fish, birds, etc.

See if the the 'techs' at General Organics can explain that one away. You might also ask why the entire General Organics line is banned in Oregon. [cite]

LD

Here's another question for these kids.......

In the poultry industry it is standard practice to provide Calcium to the hens. Egg shells are 96% Calcium Carbonate (which works out to 37.8% Elemental Calcium (Ca++). If this mineral compound is water soluble then why wouldn't a liquid form be provided to the birds?

Another good one is this..........

If Calcium Carbonate (or any form of Calcium) is water soluble, wouldn't oyster shells be pretty easy to shuck? Eggs you could just tear them open like a baggie, right? Lobster shells wouldn't be much of a challenge either - just tear the claws open since Lobster shells are also 96% Calcium Carbonate.

LD

TLO, ignore the tone, you aren't getting what they are telling you because of a cotton buildup trying to hear around what is being said. Some opinions offered won't help, the informational ones will, but the mag in soil post was *good* info. Learn from it. This is fact:

The Federal Food and Drug people don't oversee bottled nutrients, they are not required to list what's actually in them in most states, and they don't list many of what's 'in there'. Weather it's a leftover substance they used to breakdown a major mineral or compound, or if they added it on purpose and mislabled it to sound better, it's common knowledge that those bottles that you are using contain substances that they don't have on the label. What's 'leftover' in the bottle causes wanton destruction of soil's microflora, the company just sells you more bottles to 'fix' the issues that the primary ones caused. The rev, I read him too, has a better than just a bottle set up, but he's still half in and half out, half bottles, half ammended soil... should just drop them all and just use dirt...but General Organics now owns him/signs his paychecks and his approach is more 'organic bottles', which don't actually exist. Any Alkaline metal will need to be chelated, they all use EDTA and they all don't mention it, it remains 'in there'. It fucks with your microherd. This plus those substances that you are paying huge amounts of money for that cost them 5 cents to put in there, a table spoon of sul-po-mag in water with some molasses for 80 bucks a gallon...'what the fuck!' comes to mind.

TLO, ignore the tone, you aren't getting what they are telling you because of a cotton buildup trying to hear around what is being said. Some opinions offered won't help, the informational ones will, but the mag in soil post was *good* info. Learn from it. This is fact:

The Federal Food and Drug people don't oversee bottled nutrients, they are not required to list what's actually in them in most states, and they don't list many of what's 'in there'. Weather it's a leftover substance they used to breakdown a major mineral or compound, or if they added it on purpose and mislabled it to sound better, it's common knowledge that those bottles that you are using contain substances that they don't have on the label. What's 'leftover' in the bottle causes wanton destruction of soil's microflora, the company just sells you more bottles to 'fix' the issues that the primary ones caused. The rev, I read him too, has a better than just a bottle set up, but he's still half in and half out, half bottles, half ammended soil... should just drop them all and just use dirt...but General Organics now owns him/signs his paychecks and his approach is more 'organic bottles', which don't actually exist. Any Alkaline metal will need to be chelated, they all use EDTA and they all don't mention it, it remains 'in there'. It fucks with your microherd. This plus those substances that you are paying huge amounts of money for that cost them 5 cents to put in there, a table spoon of sul-po-mag in water with some molasses for 80 bucks a gallon...'what the fuck!' comes to mind.

There is no cotton in my ears. If they used edta I would taste in the Vaporizer. If you have good taste and smell, and smoke from a vaporizer, you can taste synthetic salts, it wrecks the quality. So until you smoke my shit, I don't think you know what the fuck your talking about. I have run roots line without a flush, and still the flavor is 100% organic, you can taste no snythetic salts what so ever. I'm sure there are a ton a shitty companies, but Roots is the best bottle company out there, the only one that may even compare is BioBizz (all sources are guaranteed and certified organic). I am without a doubt the pickiest smoker I have ever met. If I taste synthetic salts i empty the bowl and clean out the vaporizer and replace the bag. If you own a VOLCANO vaporizer and are the type that is into connisuer quality everything meaning you have a very good ability to taste/smell (smell is a huge part of tasting) than you can identify (even when flushed) sythetic cannabis upon smoking in a vaporizer.

Lastly, how the fuck can you say that General Organic owns him? LOL, he rarely uses bottles (not half), he showed that bottle ONE TIME in one issue as a solution for people who didn't amend properly at the start. All your assumptions and conjecture may you look like your full of shit.

Edited by TloGrow, 18 January 2012 - 03:08 PM.
grammatical and spelling errors