Neem cake

SwetnK

In this instance, the term cake and meal are interchangeable. Neem seed cake/meal is the dried residue after the oil has been pressed from the seeds.

All parts of the neem tree contain the agent Azadiractin (among 60+ others equally important) that provides a defense against molds, nematodes, leaf-eating insects, et al. This includes the leaves, bark, seeds, roots, branches, etc.

The pressing does not remove all of the oil or the active agents. The Azadiractin level of the meal is generally about 1/3 - 1/2 of the PPM level of the oil that was pressed, i.e. if the neem oil tests out at 1500 PPM for Azadiractin then you could figure that the meal/cake would come in at 500 PPM - 750 PPM.

The cake is helpful in any type of organic growing environment. It has a solid NPK profile (if you're one of those who subscribes to that paradigm), a complete micro-nutrient component as well as trace elements, phytohormones (Abscisic acid, Auxins, Cytokinins, Ethylene, Gibberellins) Vitamin C, citric acid, saponin, et al. providing improved conditions for the nitrification process, preventing root rot and other anaerobic-related problems like root aphids, gnats, etc.

The neem seed cake also triggers a plant's defenses through a number of agents it contains resulting in systemic defense against the invasive powdery mildew issues.

The meal/cake can also be used to make an effective tea during those times of the grow/flower cycle where using the neem oil may not be the best option. 1/2 cup of neem seed meal/cake and 1/4 cup of kelp meal along with 1 tsp. of liquid silica into 5 gallons of water and then bubbled/brewed for 18 - 24 hours. This can be used to irrigate the plants as well as applying as a foliar spray.

I'd recommend the neem & karanja seed meals from NeemResource.com - it's organic. It's Fair trade. It's Inexpensive. It's Effective. And the woman who heads this organization is the most informed individual I've ever talked with on the subject of neem tree products in general.

And her products are from India. There's a lot of neem products coming in from China and Africa. That's not necessarily a bad thing. However, the neem tree industry in India goes back several centuries. The tree is part of the worship of several incarnations of the Godhead including Krishna, Ganesha, Vishnu, Shiva, et al. and it's a part of the culture in the production regions and the industry is tightly controlled by the Parker India Group.

For me I consider neem cake as important as my other 'must have' for gardening, i.e. kelp meal, alfalfa meal and rock dusts.

YMMV

HTH

LD

 

LD,

I gathered from your post that Neem meal/cake would be useful as a soil amendment as well. Is this true or do you mainly use it in teas? can it be used as a top dressing for established plants?

 

There's another thread, I'll look for it tomorrow, where LD's always wonderful posts convinced me to include Neem meal in my outdoor grow medium for next year. Powdery mildew ain't no fun

 

p_snickers

I use about 1 tablespoon of neem seed meal/cake to each 1 gallon of potting soil to achieve the benefits that I described above.

You can make a tea from neem seed meal though I probably would not recommend adding it to an AACT though. I have tested AACT's using neem seed meal as part of the basic mix and it had no negative impact at all - but my brewing equipment and ingredients are probably different from other folks so I would not suggest using it for an AACT.

A straight neem seed cake/meal and kelp meal tea both as part of your watering cycle and as a foliar application would be suggested and beneficial from my experience.

HTH

LD

 

Lumper, I just ordered a 8 oz. bottle of neem oil from Neemresource for my small tent operation. I usually only have 1-2 plants that go to maturity due to ithe tents' small size. The 8 oz bottle will be great for that. Also, I can use it outside on some of my other edible plants - basil, tomoatoes, peppers, etc.Last a long time.

Anyway, I was going to get the Neem cake, but was a little worried about their caution of use in pots. Sounds like your 1 tbls./gallon is what you have found to be effective.

What about use of it when I am using Botanicare Liduids [Pureblend Original - Bloom (.5-.5-1) Pureblend Pro - Vegetative (3-1.5-4)Pureblend Pro - Fruit & Flower Formula (2.5-2-5)] or the Adv. Nutes Mother Earth Teas - Grow and Bloom?

I am using about 10-15% recommended of any of these nute products to fertilize my plants which are in FFOF and Light Warrior (50/50 mix). My plant looks awesome right now though it is a remnant bagseed of unknown variety.

Any idea what amount of neem cake you would use in my soil if I continued using the nutes I currently have in use?

I always find your advice intriguing and accurate, so I appreciate anything you might suggest.

From the desert,

JaK

 

JaK

You know - I saw that too and was more than a little puzzled. Perhaps they're talking about small pots (1 gallon or less perhaps) - I'm at a loss.

I'm setting a calendar reminder to call the on Monday and find out what their concerns are. I'll post their answer and such.

I apply about 1 tablespoon to 1 gallon of mixed potting soil - more or less. Since you seem to be a cautious grower (a good thing, IMHO) and if you're not fighting powdery mildew every day of the year you could go with 1/2 that amount and be in the uber safe zone and still provide the benefits of neem meal.

That would be 1.5 teaspoons per 1 gallon of soil. That's way beyond a cautious and a careful application rate. Even the rate that I use would be considered uber safe by most organic gardeners that I know and talk with completely unrelated to growing cannabis - I'm talking about using neem with berries, culinary herbs, etc. where flavor and delicate plants are the norm. Compared to growing carrots or spuds - that kind of thing.

HTH

LD

 

Lumper - will the neem inhibit the growth of beneficial bacteria and fungi, or does it only inhibit growth of 'bad' bacteria and fungi?

 

pinkpipe

For reasons that are a mystery to me and others, the addition of neem cake to a soil does not impact the aerobic fungi - neem products are anti-fungal but not much on the anti-bacterial front.

The neem cake does not negatively impact the mycorrhizal fungi either. In fact in one study conducted in India, ecto-mycorrhizal colonies were introduced into controlled groves and the oil that was pressed was measured as well as the total yield weight and the results showed that these fungi improved to growth and development of the nut pods.

What I found interesting about this is that the entire neem tree contains the anti-fungal properties from the root hairs up to the leaves and bark.

I've also used it in small worm bins and then measured the fungi levels from an AACT brewed with the castings with no measurable difference from a sample from another bin where neem seed cake was not applied. Both bins were fed the exact same food items as well as amended with oyster shell powder and soft rock phosphate.

HTH

LD

 

Lumper, hey thanks for the info. I am looking forward to getting the neem oil. I will have to get the neem cake later. Wished I read you radvice first, I would have got abth at the same time.

Other thing is there are lot of placing selling neem oil. Some cheaper than neem resource. you think there is a possibility of inferior products. I imagine there are. You run into any.

also, wht soap did you mix with your neem oil solution again. I can't seem to find it.

thanks again, Lumper.

JaK

 

JaK

The pricing differences are a result of 2 different factors.

1. Neem trees are now grown in several countries besides India where it has been grown and harvested for centuries. The products coming out of China are all over the board with regard to Azadirachtin levels and the other limonoids that are also present and measured.

2. The process of extraction is the key relative to the quality of the neem oil. Companies like Dyna-Gro and NeemResource.com cold-press the oil from the neem seeds. Cheap neem oil is extracted using a chemical process rendering it fairly worthless for organic farmers and gardeners.

Products which are pure Azadirachtin extracts (Advanced Nutrients has one and General Hydroponics also has one - check the MSDS on both products and you tell me if their products aren't coming from the very same source) are chemically extracted and having said that it's not that good of an extract compared to the products handled by the Parker India Group that controls the neem seed industry in India.

With neem oil and other neem tree products you pretty much get what you pay for. One of the few times in the world of horticulture as it turns out.

HTH

LD

 

Much like the differences between heat processed fish emulsions and fish hydrolysate?

 

Exactly!

And seaweed extract - Maxicrop uses an alkaline extraction process with heat. Acadian Seaplants, Ltd. uses a cold-extraction process resulting in higher microbial levels. Same deal with humic and fulvic acids. Etc.

LD

 

pinkpipe

It took me a bit to find this article online. I have a copy on my computer but was reluctant to copy and paste it. It is a PDF file if that's a concern to you.

It's a tad geeky but it should give you a good base of understanding how neem seed products impact VAM in a soil.

HTH

LD

 

jakrustle

I talked with Ms. Usha Rao at NeemResource.com (i.e. The Ahimsa Alternative) about the warning in using neem seed cake in container-grown plants and I think that you and others may find her talking points interesting.

Ms. Rao said that when neem seed cake/meal is used in standard potting soil mixes the meal can cause problems because of the lack of microbial activity in these mixes. In an outdoor garden the problems do not arise because there's generally enough microbes in the soil to interact with the meal that results in benefitting the plant.

I told her the soil mix that I work with and specifically on the lab reports on the microbe levels achieved using top of the line EWC and/or thermal compost. I also told her that I would send her copies of tests done by myself as well as the folks at KIS who tested out a number of mixes that included neem seed cake/meal and in the case of one test I used neem tree leaves.

She asked me for copies of the lab reports which I've already sent to her and she's going to send me a 'gift package' on some of her more esoteric products like her soap nut powder and the neem leaf and bark powder for testing.

Thanks for your question - I made a new friend today who's interested in looking at the work that I and others have established. And I got some freebies to boot!

The rate of 1 tablespoon per 1 gallon of potting soil is definitely a safe level of application according to her given the level of microbes in our EWC and thermal compost products.

HTH

LD

 

Thanks Lumper! It's very interesting how adaptive these natural compounds are. I also usually throw the 'sludge' from compost tea in my worm bin, so that's good to know.

 

Wow, Lumper, you are the research king. Go right to the source. Thanks for looking into this neem cake issue for all of us. So excellent getting to know all this stuff. BTW, i did get my bottle of oil in the mail. They were quick to get it to me. I chopped a plant today so I will have it for my next grow.

Still going to go back to get the cake as I am planning a garden for the fall and spring. we get lots of bugs here in the desert so I am looking foraward to having it for the tent and the bucket garden in the yard.

thanks, again.

JaK