Stealth grow, DWC, Scrog, Journal

Hello, This will be my first grow ever, and needless to say, I'm very excited about getting started. I was so excited that I actually blew my budget by quite a bit, and that is why the grow journal will have to be postponed until I get my lights, the 12th (pay day ^^). I am a bit unsure about the choice of lighting but I was thinking I would just make room for the grow journal here, and pick up the topic again when I start. That way I was hoping I might get a little input from you guys before I go and buy the lighting.

I will keep daily grow details in the journal and try to post every day aswell and just hotlink to the days in this main post.
NOTE: JOURNAL HAS NOT STARTED YET AND BOX IS NOT 100% COMPLETE. ANY INPUT AND CHANGES WILL BE WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS.
NOTE: I am sorry for the poor language. Please ask if there are parts you are not able to understand.
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Journal[Not started]
Waiting on lights to begin. This is the seeds I got to pick from:
2xDutch Passion Dutch Cheese Feminized
2xBig Buddha Blue Cheese Feminized
I also got some free seeds with them:
UFO#2 CH9 Female Seeds Jack
FREE Eva Seeds Jamaican Dream Feminized
FREE EVA Seeds Monster Feminized
FREE EVA Seeds TNT Kush Feminized
UFO#1 CH9 Female Seeds Cluster
Feeding schedule

I got a 30x/60x/100x microscope that i will use to decide the final weeks.
Grow room[In progress]


Im going to attempt to SCRoG this area, and maximizing the space by custom building a DWC box.
I will run a bathroom exhaustion fan(Silent 100-CZ: 54,7CFM, 158x158 mm, 26,5 dB) that will go into a sound muffler that bends 90° into a coal scrubber(L:600mm, capasity: 353CFM, Coal type: Coconut Carbon, 4mm). The coal scrubber is inside of its own sealed cab with some hidden air holes at the bottom so that if smell is still a issue, i got a chokepoint to add more control.
The passive air intake is 3 elbows with 32mm in diameter.

The walls of the room was first washed, then painted with a coat of latex based white paint, then siliconed the corners and another coat of paint. Outside of this is Diamond Mylar Film 98% and some alu. tape.

Ive used the height inside the grow room as following:
Bottom floor--24cm-->DWC top--20cm-->Scrog net--30cm-->Ceiling

The DWC is something like 38x22x80 on the inside so it would hold 66,88 liters at max capasity. This will be somewhat lower because of the net pots. The DWC is not done and will have a pump for draining and a 60l/h 100l capasity air pump going into one air stone below each of the two pots.

I've also got 1 max/min termostat, 2 small desk fans(dont know the numbers, see picture)and a watt reader.

Questions:
#1 What kind of light would be the best? [answered]
Im thinking HPS is too hot even with cooltube and too short in width for T5 setup. So either LED or CFL. Im thinking CFL would work the best? My plan is to build some kind of reflector hood that can be moved up and down, carrying 4 125W High Power CFL. Their size is 62x360mm and i've read CFL works best 3-4cm above plant. That would mean each bulb would take up 14.2cm in width on the screen. Making the hood 56cm wide in maximum effect. Would it be wise to seperate them a bit more to fill more off the scrog? I will be running 3x6400K 1x2700k during veg and 3x2700k 1x6400k during flowering. Each bulb have 8000lm. More bulbs can allways be added if this does not seem right.
#2 Will it be enough CFM and passive air intake with the oversized coal scrubber and the sound muffler? [Unanswered]
#3 Does the DWC capacity and scrog height seem good? And is there enough room left for the light? [Unanswered]
#4 Does the seed's seem ideal for the grow room or should i try some other types? [Unanswered]
#5 Is there anything important that i have forgotten or should consider implementing?

Edited by anon4life, 12 April 2012 - 02:56 PM.

Looks good!

Looks good!

Thanks! Hopefully it works good aswell!!

Anybody got any input?

looks like good build

I think for lighting, you're working with a weird shaped area. You have about 4.7 sq feet of area. With HID go with 50watts per square foot and with cfls go with 100w per square foot. A 250w hps in the middle in a cooltube would do well with a 'U' shaped scrog, and save some electricity..but as you said it might be tough to cool.

If you go with cfls I would try to stick to tube style flouros in order to save headroom and give you better coverage. I use some pll lights..they're basically a t-5 bent in half. You can mount them directly on the ceiling and they'll only take up about 3cm of height. They come in 36w (~43cm) and 55w (~61cm). You would have to wire them up yourself though, which isn't too hard. They also have a separate ballast that you get mount outside of the grow area to keep temperatures lower then the corkscrew style bulbs.

...really I'm not sure if it would be harder to cool 400 watts worth of cfls or a 250w hps. Led is another great option if it's in your budget. Personally I would get multiple smaller panels to even out the coverage and start with maybe 2 smaller panels and leave room to add a 3rd if necessary later.

I think you might need to upgrade the fan to cool the wattages I was talking about..does it say the 'mA' or power rating on the fan? ..this is the best way to tell how much cfm it really pushes. It's hard to guess with PC fans....sometimes you just need to hook em up and find out. I think you will need at least 2x more passive intakes.

The dwc sounds good...just make sure to lightproof it and make it easy to access to check nutes levels and stuff.

on the seeds, I'd pop 2 of the same so that they finish at the same time. Plan on vegging for about 1 1/2-2 months to fill the screen...maybe sooner if the hydro does really well.
Timer?
I hope you have a ph meter n stuff

Aww, you came to help me out again bongsauce! Ive seen your posts around and I must say your parents have done a superb job! You're so polite and helpfull it scares me!

Im working full time at the moment, but will soon become a full time student, so my idea was to build a complete, 100% stealth grow room that will keep me set for the next five years. This means I am willing to spend what it costs to get a good, permanent room.

When i say temprature will be a problem, i was thinking mainly that I would not have enough space from the top colas peaking out of the scrog, to the bulb/cool tube (More of a sun burn issue then a heat issue with a cold tube). I live in a cold country. I got floor heating in my living room and kitchen, but im unsure if it's under the section my bar/stealth room is located (I sure hope not, seeing as it might fuck with the DWC water temps if I use it). This would mean I could control the air temps flowing in by having my living room in the temp that works best to get the grow room at 75-76F'ish.

As of now I only got 11.81 inches from scrog to ceiling. I got 7.87 inches from DWC/soil to the Scrog though, so I might be able to lower that a bit, especially if its U-shaped, seeing as it might naturally create some more work room for the training.

The power rating of the fan is 230V/8W. IP45. I am also planning a mother room thats going be on top of a dressing cabinet, with the exhaust going straight out the wall, and the smaller 54CFM fan could just be used for that so it wont be totally wasted. And if I go for a cooltube I would need another exhaust fan anyways. Will a 54CFM be enough to cool of a tube?


Anways, if im going to change my fan, do you think I should upgrade to something like an:
centrifugal duct fan:
Airflow: 190CFM
Current: 0,30A
Power: 70W
IP44

?

I also got an 3,74 inch elbow as shown in one of the pictures, laying around that I could add as a passive air intake. I left some room at the left side of the DWC for the water drain pump and tap system. I got plenty of space for passive air intakes. Do you think that would work if I upgrade the fan to 190CFM? PVC elbows isnt exactly the expensive part of a grow room, so adding more if needed wont be a problem.

Please give me your honest opinion in how many i should have.

Buying lights into my country is far from easy. Not much weed growing, and even less tomato growing here, so the selection is limited unless i want to order from the states. That would add 25% on the price in taxes and 75 dollars in shipping. If im buying from my own country I can either order online from or just visit this store: Vekstlys | Plantelys | Design Belysning AS 100 KR equals around 17$ so if your able to load the page you'll se what I got to work with. Ordering internationally is a possibillty if you think that I would benefit from it, both/either concerning price or quality.

If LED is the way to go, i think i must order from the states seeing as the lowest price and wat they got here is:
90W UFO m/3W LED
Power:90w(30x3w)
Voltage:120/230VAC
Color:R&B&O
Lumens:3500LM
Power factor:>0.97
Operating Temp.: -20?~50?
Life span:50,000hrs

Pricing at a crazy 263$ Jesus that aint much wattage for cash....

If i go for HPS with cooltube it will actually be the cheapest solution lumen/dollar, so if you think its possible im all for it! The heating shouldnt be a problem, but the extremly short space might. I read that even if you cool tube a 250W so that the glass is cold, you still need to keep it 4inches from the top colas to prevent sunburns? The T5's i will also have to order international,. The problem is i have not found any T5 setups that fits inside of my space(39.5in width) that ships international

If you know of any good CFL or LED setups for my space, that ships international please send me a link. My plan for lighting, and what I was ready to buy for my setup before i read this post:
2x 250W CFL 2700K (36cm long)
3x 23W CFL 6500K

And just running them during the whole growth, as I read that K was important, but that 2700K would work OK for veg as well as long as you had enough lumen. I even started building some custom reflector hoods for them to try and save a bit of money. I was going to put mylar on the inside of the reflector (got a lot left). I really want to get this finished so I can stop throwing cash at it. On the other hand, I dont want to half ass anything and end up replacing stuff later, after a failed grow. I would really appriciate your help on the choice of light, as i think ive read everything there is on this subject, but there is so many different opinions and im really scared of making the choice myself as i've never done a grow before.

How would you light up my space?

And if you think HPS is possible in my space with a cool tube and U-Scrog, how would you suggest building the U scrog? The scrog i got now is 75Kg limited ropes for drying cloths put into a wooden frame as shown in picture.

Im really unsure of the lighting in this grow box, everything else is easy to adjust or replace, but when I get the light, im pretty much stuck with it. I really dont want the lights to be a failed investment

I got PH, EC, root riot, GH gro,micro,bloom, 30x/60x/100x microscope, hydroton clay pebs, CO2 tablets and some kick ass plans for a waterpump drain with a tap implemented for samples on the DWC. I also found this awesome glass sylinder I took out of an old coffe machine that will be perfect for messuring water inside of the DWC.

Sorry for the wall of text and sorry for all the questions
Lighting is hard!

Edited by anon4life, 07 April 2012 - 11:11 PM.

Oh, if heating is not an issue, do I still need to change my fan, considering the coal scrubber and air flow inside of the grow cab? And if I dont replace it, would you still suggest adding more passive air intakes? The way you worded yourself made me think I was off by quite a lot.

Update: I have finally found 150wat HPS. So two of them is also a option now.

Edited by anon4life, 08 April 2012 - 12:27 AM.

....I think maybe the 54cfm fan could cool the tube but only if it's a straight shot of ducting and cooled separately. I don't see an easy way to set it up like that though. I think a 4" inline fan would be good...which is I think what you listed specs for, get a fan controller too to fine tune temps/airflow. An inline fan will make some noise. You can insulate it a little but you'll most likely hear a small hum even with it dialed down...alot of people just put a fan in the room to use to cover up exhaust sound. I personally use a few panasonic whisper fans in my setups...they work great and are supersilent..but I dunno about overseas stuff and what products are available. You might want to also look into the S&P fans ... another quiet alternative. I remember seeing a new line of S&P fans that were only available oversea so maybe you could score one of those...it was a super silent model or something.

On passive intakes: Standard rule is to make your intake at least 2x as big as the exhaust. Just remember that 1x 10cm hole is not the same as 10x 1cm holes. You can always add more later, or add filtering over them to reduce airflow a little. As long as you have negative pressure and you're not choking/restricting the fan, you should be fine.

--

not sure what it's like shipping to your country. I didn't know it was so expensive. I think only you can decide if it's worth the extra cost to invest in. I always think it's best to do things right the first time, but it's up to you to decide how well you need it to all work. Led's are pricey yes, usually around 3-4 USD a watt. They also last for years and years with no bulbs to replace, less heat = easier to cool, so less investment/work trying to keep them cool. HPS will give you higher yields but will be a little harder to cool. You are right about 'sunburns' .. but with good airflow you can get them pretty close. I get buds 5-7 cm from my 150w lights and they do fine.

I don't know which companies ship international. You'll have to look into it, but here's a few I've used in US:

panasonic whisper fan - wamhomecenter

bright kits/PLL setup - ahsupply

PLL ballasts/bulbs - 1000bulbs

LED - HydroGrowLed ...but they no longer have the models I purchased 2 years ago, and their newer models are much more expensive. I don't know enough about the different brands of leds to recommend a brand...but I think the square panels would work better for you then the round ufo style.


I think the 250w cfls would be the same size/heat as a hps cooltubed. Remember that the cfls have the ballasts attached to the bulb, the hps doesn't...nor do the plls.

I think overall your biggest issue is space and not getting the buds too close to the bulbs...moving the screen down a little and maybe even finding a shorter container would make a huge difference and open up some more options.

How would you light up my space?

I would use 2 x 150w hps's either cooltubed or ran vertically barebulb. I currently use 150w hps in my grow though...so I'm biased I really love the idea of vertical hps and I find it really hard to design a new grow without using that design.

scrog screen can be made of chicken wire and wood frame if necessary...worry bout that later after lighting/exhaust is figured

*wall of text* ..must admit my eyes hurt a little at first and I ran away. now my fingers hurt instead


edit* when I originally suggested 2x more passive intakes that was with a fan upgrade.

Edited by Bongsauce, 08 April 2012 - 02:40 AM.

Converted my -scrog to a adjustable Uscrog like you suggested, and think i will try to run 250W MH/HPS with a reflector pointing towards me. Hopefully i will be able to shape the reflector somewhat to my need. I will just complete the DWC and do some testing with lights, vent and DWC running and messure room temp, 5 inches from light temp, humidity etc. Think it will be easier to make possible vent upgrades after an test run off the system. Will maybe update some pictures from building progress the coming days, but the big update will come the 12'th-13'th when lights etc. arrives.

Im really glad you are helping me out Bongsauce. You got any idea of what kind of yeild i could expect from my space with a 250W if im good with training and so on?

example seeds: 2xBig Buddha Blue Cheese

Edit: Think i should bother getting yo-yo's for my reflector or just hard mount it to the ceiling seeing the space from pot to ceiling is just 50cm/19.86in? When the plant reach the scrog its only 37cm/14,56in to ceiling. Not sure how much space the reflector and socket take, but from pictures it looks it cant be more then 8cm/3.14in. Might be more/less. Never seen a reflector in person.

Edited by anon4life, 08 April 2012 - 10:57 PM.

Yeh..make sure to point the bulb towards you to get a good light spread. Venting might be a little more difficult, but it's worth it.

I think you should just hard mount the fixture to the ceiling..there's not much room, it's gonna be a tight fit.

I'm happy to help as long as I don't mess anything up along the way I think with a 250 and a nice full screen you could pull 4-8 oz...maybe 3-4 on the first run if things go smooth. I hate guessing yields! hahah.

what reflector did you get? I bet you can find someone with the exact same reflector and ask em to measure it for ya ..hopefully it's not too wide to run 'pointing towards you' ...cuz that's pretty important to get the most out of your light..

Have not bought it yet. Going to the store in two days(12th) when its pay day^^
http://vimg.iflex.no//CompressImage.aspx?height=286&width=280&FileName=ProductImage/20090731180106875.jpg

Its 45x35cm so a very tight fit.. thinking i might be able to just cut some off it off? Know the dimensions of 250W HPS Lucalox bulb
http://vimg.iflex.no//CompressImage.aspx?height=286&width=280&FileName=ProductImage/15112011100939250whps000346.jpg
and 250W HQI-T 5200K?
http://vimg.iflex.no//CompressImage.aspx?height=286&width=280&FileName=ProductImage/01552010105527177.jpg

Seeing worst case scenario the reflector barely does not fit, cant you just saw some of it off?
Really hope im able to cool them badboys. With two fans blowing directly on them, it should be ok?

When im going to pick up my lights, 250W MH and HPS.. do i need any other light to get a plant from seed to harvest? Should i pick up a CFL for when the seed breaks the ground and the first week or so? Or will the plant handle a 250W MH from beginning?

Edited by anon4life, 10 April 2012 - 05:06 PM.

hmmm...I would recommend a cooltube but I don't think it would fit...you can DIY one if you can find the glass tube. (pyrex bake-a-round). Trimming the reflector should be fairly easy...it's like a real thick pop can. If you have some superstrong scissors you can probably just trim it.

where's your exhaust hole at? is it on the right wall? I think you'll be able to cool it...with those 2 fans on the right blowing to the left, you create a cross current which should keep the air flowing really well. I try to set up a cross-current like that whenever I build...

the average 250w bulb is probably like 10" from end to end...about 25cm <- that's an educated guess. just trying to gauge between my 150w bulbs and my 400

you could start off with a cfl or 2 in order to save a little electricity...but you'll be fine to start a seed under the 250 as long as you can keep it watered..might be a little tough with so much light and airflow. Seeds start under sunlight...too much light isn't a worry..keeping them moist can be tough.

"If you know of any good CFL or LED setups for my space, that ships international please send me a link. My plan for lighting, and what I was ready to buy for my setup before i read this post:
2x 250W CFL 2700K (36cm long)
3x 23W CFL 6500K"

Get a 200w envirolite, 1/2 for veg 1/2 for flower.
These CFL's will give less heat off, and save a bit of space not to mention power cost, no ballasts needed and you can use a 20w 2,700k CFL with your veg for more light range and vise versa for your flower stage. Keep it basic-ish.
Envirolite.
http://www.basementl...=1/PROD/EL200WB
or Plug n Go.
http://www.enviro-gr...co.uk/Lamps.asp (fair limiting this site)
^ site has info on envirolite (specs)
I'd go with the CFL's they'll be cheaper in the long run

Edited by scottknofriends, 12 April 2012 - 02:09 PM.

scottknofriends: Thanks for the input! I've allready gone for a 250W HPS and is not looking forward to attempting to cool it

Its a shame, because this hood from the site you linked looks so sweet and fits the room exactly Bu

I have gotten my seeds in the mail now and germinated one now. I will run a free seed alone in the setup first as a trial run to get some practice before i start on any famouse strains. I germinated a bag seed with success three days ago, but it has yet to break surface. I am probably going to toss that plant when it becomes a seedling, just wanted to try it for experience.

I am thinking of building a PC grow cab for a mother plant. I have read tutorials on making bonsai mothers and will try to do that inside of a PC cab.
http://vimg.iflex.no//CompressImage.aspx?height=286&width=280&FileName=ProductImage/spare35wwww000346.jpg
35W CFL 6400K E27
Do you think this light will do to bring a mother plant from seed to mother? Or would you suggest making a clone of the plant i want for mother, when i start that strain in the normal grow room? Seeing your such a fan of coco, would you suggest using coco for the motherplant? Guess i need to use soil so i can trim the roots later?

Hopefully i will get the lights this weekend, and start the journal soon.

I htink that light will be enough for a mother plant and some clones..maybe a little pre-veg. I have 7 mothers right now under a 36w flouro and they do really good. I keep them in 4"x4" pots of coco.

I always recommend coco..I clone in it and keep my mothers in it too. Since yer already doing some hydro you would be able to use pretty much the same nutes to water the mother plant. I keep mothers for months and months with no root pruning...when they start to get to branchy or big, I just make a few new clones and make a brand new mother plant from a clone and veg/flower out the mother.

Usually when I run a seed I top it early..at about hte 3rd or 4th node. I do this to promote some early branching. Then later, by the time I can tell the sex, I'll take multiple clones to make sure they survive. Then as soon as one pops roots I put the mother into flower. Alternatively you could flower the clones after they pop roots but I'd rather flower out the larger mother plant and just keep a smaller clone of it till later when I find out if the pheno is any good.

How are you starting the seeds? I prefer the little jiffy rooting pucks. I transplant into more coco in about a week after they sprout.

sorry for the lack of updates. The lights are on their way, but delivery date is first the 19th. Built a cloning machine and got the water and air pumps hooked up inside of the DWC. We tried filling the DWC with water today, but it was NOT waterproof so had quite a cleanup seeing we tried to fill it inside the grow area... not wise. It is waterproof now but have to wait for some silicone to dry. The seed has been gerimnated aswell but have yet to show in the soil, while the bagseed is still thriving and have shown its trademark leafs. I have also gotten the messurement equiptment and hopefully everything will run smooth when the lights arrive.

so far this looks awesome, i'm in for the ride... good luck man

I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!

Litterally, the lamp showed up yesterday, and we have been busy! Pics are on the way!

Unfortunately, my bagseed plant died of heat when I tried with a stronger fan to cool it Rest in peace Baggy

i will embolish this post later tonight

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