My Advanced Nutrients does not work in DWC journal

Discussion in 'Hydroponic Growing' started by Dustybowlz, Aug 31, 2011.

  1. I'm going to start this with, I have had a couple soil plants and still have a few that I'm feeding with advanced nutrients that seem to do okay/ good.

    I am using ro water that starts at 6.5ph a d 10 ppms. That I store in a 55 gallon drum with airstone at the bottom.

    In my vegative cycle I use 3 gallon buckets. I fill them with 1.5 gallons of water. In bloom I use 5 gallon buckets. I fill them with 3 gallons of water. I try to keep the water level 1 inch below the net pot.

    Vegetive cycle seems to do pretty well. Although that's where the wilting starts. The ph will stay stable. But the bloom is where is starts to go down hill. I have tried soo many different feeding strengths and still get a ph drop. I started with low strengths and then resorted to starting with higher strengths because I was told it could help buffer it more. Both left leaf burn. I seem to get a lot of burn in bloom a few weeks in. Which leads me to lower my feed strength and struggle with ph drop. Last grow I started really looking into what was in the nutes and micros I was adding and t wonder if my burn in't feed strength burn and is some form of toxicity (from using it to try to get a buffer).

    At first I really didn't know what I was doing, I was taking feeding schedule from a friend. His strains are tough and take a lot of abuse. His feed strength is too much for mine. I can only resort to calling the AN tech line and there not familiar with dwc. I have been told the online feed chart is in correct (and seems very strong to me!) So I have been feeding and supplementing 100% from one specific person at AN tech lines suggestion.

    Let me just say this is not working and im at the point im going to look into $back satisfaction guarantee from AN or giving up on DWC for a little while.

    Sincerely,
    Sleep deprived and frustrated
     
  2. Well nyou need some more details. Pics would help. PLus what ppms, pH, nutes, additives etc.... DWC requires less nutes than soil/ebb&flo etc. If you're early on (only a couple weeks into veg), try dropping your ppm to 800 (total, including cal-mag etc) (@.7). Do you have municipal water or well water? if it is municipal water below ~250 ppm(@.7), drop the RO water and use tap. If it is higher than that, or well water , continue to use RO, but add cal-mag.

    As for your cloner problems (i scanned your journal), try using an aquarium heater, a cheap one, they come set at 78* and that is what you want. Use only tap water in the cloner, nothing else.
     
  3. In your original post you stated you set your ph at 6.5. That is a little high. Try lowering your ph down to 5.7-5.9. Also what are environmental conditions like as well as water temps.
     
  4. [quote name='"fyrhazzrd"']In your original post you stated you set your ph at 6.5. That is a little high. Try lowering your ph down to 5.7-5.9. Also what are environmental conditions like as well as water temps.[/quote]


    Ph was always set to 5.5-5.6
    Ph has always dropped no matter the ppms.
    I started setting my ph to 6.0 (not sure where u say 6.5, I said my water is 6.5 from the Ro.)
    The reason was to allow it to drop from 6.0 to 5.0 or less vs from 5.5 to 4.5. Seemed like a better swing.

    Temps and Rh are consistently at 73-75* and 50-57rh

    Thanks for looking.
     
  5. Honestly, I'm not sure this is a nutrient problem. Sounds to me like there's some sort of problem with your roots.

    Some sort of disease or something. And no matter what you do with yoru nutes, you'll still have the troubles you're describing here.

    It might be a problem of things getting too hot in yoru grow too. That's a common issue. How hot is it in there? That is a surefire way to cause troubles.

    Since your plants are wilting after the grow phase, you're doing something right in that phase, but things are changing in the veg phase. What's changing between tehse phases? Besides the nutrients?

    Personally, I'd look into some root treatments to see if that helps. If you're following the AN nutrient schedule, you're not doing anything wrong, and that is proven by your pH levels.

    Disease, my friend.
     
  6. Oh ok.. I completely misread that then.. Sorry for the confusion.

    I had just the opposite problem when I used Advanced Nutrients. I would set my soup to 5.7 and within a couple hours it would jump up over 7.0.. I completely switched over to General Hydroponics and never had another problem. I set it to 5.7 and it stays there. So I think AN definitely has issues.

    Oh 75 is really warm for DWC.. that can cause root rot if you don't have a shit load of bubbles.
     
  7. Thank you for the reply!

    I always thought my roots looked and smelled great. Now its the last thing to check so im really entertaining that idea. After all, it is the last thing that can cause major issues like this.

    My wilting begins in veg and persists into bloom. There isn't much of a change between veg and bloom. Except the temp lowers a few degrees and the Rh lowers some.

    *I am using (only for short period of time, changing brands soon) voodoo and piranha for beneficial bacteria. I have never exceeds 1/4 strength on them in veg and bloom. The power stuff floats all over and seems to leave particles on bottom of buckets. I can't imagine how 50-75% more stuff in there would be? (Should I increase strength here? Could it not be enough beneficial bacteria to fight offwork the disease? Should I run beneficial bacteria or h202 in veg?

    *I run as cold of water temps as (summer) will allow. Veg is around 70* lights off and 72-73* lights on. Bloom is 69* and averages 70*-71* but have seen it as high as 72.5*.

    *The ph drop isn't noticeable in veg. Seems to start between 1-3weeks in. Bloom. It throws me off every harvest because, as a noob, I don't know what ppms I should be at. As I slowly increase the ppms (every 5-7days) it would start to drop. Once it had its schedule, I fail to correct the issue. I too, now think it is a disease or pathogen.

    I decided its more beneficial to kill disease then to have beneficial bacteria. So I started using h202 at 3ml per L and adding 25% back each day. Its been 2-3 days now with no significant change.

    I also started testing my water. My well water is ph of 8, ppms of 225 and has a LOT of buffer in it. I have been topping off with it. Its soo strong I can add a few gallons and effectively raise my ph one whole point! 3 days of using my well water and the ph seems to slow the rate in which it drops. Not saying its fixed. Just saying its changing
    Ive also lowered my ppms to 1200. Which would include my water, a+b feed, micro nutes ect. (Some people give me ppm #s of just there feed, before they add water and micro ect). Im going to try as I don't think I should be as low as 1000ppms.




    Should I,
    -flush and fill with just Ro
    -flush and fill with well water
    -flush and fill with 1/4 strength nutes.
    If so, how long of a flush

    -if flush, how strong do i put back when im finished flusging?

    -Shoukd I run h202
    Or
    -hygrozyme

    -should I run h202 or beneficial bacteria?
    -I don't know what to do at this point...
     
  8. The obvious problem I see is you don't say what nutes you're using. There's a few different AN base nutes, and depending on where you live and where you buy your nutes you may or may not be using the pH Perfect version that has the cool stuff in it.

    If you've got the pH Perfect I'd say to try letting the pH go wherever it wants. If you have separate nute solutions for each plant, try it with one plant, see how it does.


    Usually if your pH is dropping it means you're overfeeding. Check that by watching the ppms. Take a reading after you've mixed the nutes, then take one after you see the pH drop. If the ppms have gone up you're overfeeding. When there's too much nutes in the water the plants drink proportionally more water than nutes and the nute concentration goes up (and pH goes down).

    The reverse is true when underfeeding. The plants will eat proportionally more nutes from the solution, causing ppms to go down and pH to go up.


    Ideally you want the ppms to stay about the same and when that's happening you'll usually see a slight drift upward in pH.


    The only other question I'd have would be pertaining to aeration. It's tough to get "too much" bubbles in DWC and a lot of the problems people see are caused by not enough. First time I grew in DWC I thought "wow, I'm making a ton of bubbles". That turned out to be about half as much aeration as I needed. Get a serious aquarium air pump, not some POS from Wal-Mart. Not only will the good ones push enough air, they'll do it a ton quieter.

    So the short form - If your ppms go up, go weaker on nutes. If ppms go down, feed stronger. If ppms stay the same you're dialed in. And make sure that you're getting enough aeration, it's critical to successful DWC.
     
  9. Fungal infections can cause PH drops. Bacterial infections will usually cause it to spike.

    Wilting makes me think it's a root issue since the room is not hot.
    AN should work in DWC just fine.
     
  10. [quote name='"basementhydro"']The obvious problem I see is you don't say what nutes you're using. There's a few different AN base nutes, and depending on where you live and where you buy your nutes you may or may not be using the pH Perfect version that has the cool stuff in it.

    If you've got the pH Perfect I'd say to try letting the pH go wherever it wants. If you have separate nute solutions for each plant, try it with one plant, see how it does.

    Usually if your pH is dropping it means you're overfeeding. Check that by watching the ppms. Take a reading after you've mixed the nutes, then take one after you see the pH drop. If the ppms have gone up you're overfeeding. When there's too much nutes in the water the plants drink proportionally more water than nutes and the nute concentration goes up (and pH goes down).

    The reverse is true when underfeeding. The plants will eat proportionally more nutes from the solution, causing ppms to go down and pH to go up.

    Ideally you want the ppms to stay about the same and when that's happening you'll usually see a slight drift upward in pH.

    The only other question I'd have would be pertaining to aeration. It's tough to get "too much" bubbles in DWC and a lot of the problems people see are caused by not enough. First time I grew in DWC I thought "wow, I'm making a ton of bubbles". That turned out to be about half as much aeration as I needed. Get a serious aquarium air pump, not some POS from Wal-Mart. Not only will the good ones push enough air, they'll do it a ton quieter.

    So the short form - If your ppms go up, go weaker on nutes. If ppms go down, feed stronger. If ppms stay the same you're dialed in. And make sure that you're getting enough aeration, it's critical to successful DWC.[/quote]

    Using sensi a and b for a base.

    The crazy thing is that the ppms drop as ph rises! Shouldnt be possible, but now i think i have cyanobacteria. It is eating the nutes effectively lowering ppms. Ph rise is unexplained still.
     
  11. [quote name='"Dustybowlz"']I'm going to start this with, I have had a couple soil plants and still have a few that I'm feeding with advanced nutrients that seem to do okay/ good.

    I am using ro water that starts at 6.5ph a d 10 ppms. That I store in a 55 gallon drum with airstone at the bottom.

    In my vegative cycle I use 3 gallon buckets. I fill them with 1.5 gallons of water. In bloom I use 5 gallon buckets. I fill them with 3 gallons of water. I try to keep the water level 1 inch below the net pot.

    Vegetive cycle seems to do pretty well. Although that's where the wilting starts. The ph will stay stable. But the bloom is where is starts to go down hill. I have tried soo many different feeding strengths and still get a ph drop. I started with low strengths and then resorted to starting with higher strengths because I was told it could help buffer it more. Both left leaf burn. I seem to get a lot of burn in bloom a few weeks in. Which leads me to lower my feed strength and struggle with ph drop. Last grow I started really looking into what was in the nutes and micros I was adding and t wonder if my burn in't feed strength burn and is some form of toxicity (from using it to try to get a buffer).

    At first I really didn't know what I was doing, I was taking feeding schedule from a friend. His strains are tough and take a lot of abuse. His feed strength is too much for mine. I can only resort to calling the AN tech line and there not familiar with dwc. I have been told the online feed chart is in correct (and seems very strong to me!) So I have been feeding and supplementing 100% from one specific person at AN tech lines suggestion.

    Let me just say this is not working and im at the point im going to look into $back satisfaction guarantee from AN or giving up on DWC for a little while.

    Sincerely,
    Sleep deprived and frustrated[/quote]

    Hey sorry to hear that man I use dwc as my primary source grow with a few soil plants but hydro is good if you have a feeding schedule.. I would go with what the AN feeding schedule says Mabey weaker strength. You say these low doses at feeding mess with your PH levels? Not to insult you or take on offense but have you herd of ph down or ph up. Mix according to AN feeding schedule and let sit 15 mins after mixing and then add ph up or down till you get desired ph level. That's the way I always did it and I have great success with that method.. Hope your plants boince back
     
  12. #13 Tihspeed, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2011
  13. I have both gh ph up and down and advanced concentrated ph up and down. Im sure the swing has to do with my water (weather it be ro or well water or a mixture between the two).

    I was running og kush, pineapple express and grape god. The og is gone and pineapple is only in soil now, as a mother, and has no issues. The only strain im running till i figure this out is grape god. I love it!

    What do ypu guys think about an ewc tea?

    How about a different for of bennes?

    Urg.... help....
     
  14. #15 Dustybowlz, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2011
    Oops. No autos...
    Yes i measure ppms.

    My water level drops yet ppms stay the same.

    In veg the ph rises from 5.6. To 6.1 in 12 hours. At same time ppm drops. Im at wk 3 now and there the wors ive ever seen them. I have been getting advice from ANs tech line and they say my problem is under feeding. Originally in veg i was low low ppms, say wk1 250 wk2 450 wk3 550 wk4 650. That was when I noticed it. I was told i was feeding too light. Problems only seemed to progress from there. Currently, I am using there wk3 suggestion of 75% strength at 900ppms.

    In bloom, i currently have 1/4 strength nutes+ h202+ ro. I was in doubt, so i was flushing it out. It drops from 6.1 to8 4.5 in 12-20 hours, Everyday...... On this cycle, i started bloom around 850ppms. I upped by 100ppms a week to try to stabilize the ph, epic fail.

    I calibrate/ test calibration everyday now.

    I dont know what feed strength to go by. The very first suggestion was 1/5th strength untill there hungry. Well at that strength the cyanobacteria was really active! Another fail.

    Im almost coming to the conclution i cant get rid of the cyanobacteria. Things i do only seem to affect its level of activity.

    I think to solve the problem i need to add somthing to the mix to combat it.

    Im seriously considering a cutom "EWC TEA" But isnt that organic? Isnt that bad to run in dwc?

    -CURRENT STATUS-

    -Cyanobacteria starts days after clone is put into dwc. It is brown. I increase the amount of pirana and voodoo. This only turns roots white and brown rot to yellow/tan slime/sludge. The slime/sludge starts from the net pot and extends to the water line. Below the water, the roots are as white as can be.

    So far i have-
    -changed water used to ro.
    -doubled my air pump that feeds air stones.
    -tried 3x different methods of pre-treating my hydron.

    -Tried not adding voodoo or pirana and got brown sludge quickly.
    -tried using more voodoo and pirana and the sludge was still there, just yellow/tan in color.
    -tried more ppms of feed
    -tried less ppms of feed.
    -tried RO only (no well water in case spores were in un filtered water) no change.
    -tried covering the hydroton with a round pice of panda film to remove light leaks. (Been using these panda film/ net pot covers since the begining, could this be problem? Could this not allow release of humidity and allowing it to be held on root zone and cause the cyanobacteria?
    -i tried moving lights farther away to keep bucket temps under 70*.

    Everything is a failure.

    I dont think pirana or voodoo are effective as beneficial bacteria. I need to know what is best suited for beneficial bacteria, in dwc, preferably with advanced nutrients.

    Should i add,
    -hygrozyme or
    -cannazyme or
    -h202 (utilizing sterile environment from day one) or
    -EWC tea or
    -only one of the actice ingredients in the ewc tea? Or
    -even less nutes?

    I dont want to give up yet but damn it wpuld be nice to K.I.S.S.


    Veg-
    wk3
    75% strength feed
    1/4 strength micros
    3parts ro water
    1part well water (trying this route for buffer vs adding AN'S version of cal/mag.
    Ppms 1000 and ph of 5.6

    (Wk2 in veg had 12 hr rise in ph as ppms stayed the same. I decided to increase the ppms to next strength because there is no leaf burn and growth is slow).

    Bloom-
    Flowers look great
    Leaves look mag deficient
    Water is on uncontrollabe drop one whole ph point every day no matter what i do to the rez.
    I dont know if i should keep flushing now and pull a little early or risk adding more nutes and continuing the lock out.
    Roots are same as in veg, damaged areas are between water line and net pot. Almost coming out of the net pot. At first i introduced h202 and raised the water to touching the net pot. Slime turned more brown and no change in ph swing.
    I lowered the water line, to allow the net pot to dry up for 36 hrs, no change on ph swing but slime seemed to turn more yellow/tan color. Now im back to 1" under net pot?

    I just had a thought, i clone in a cloner and let em run for 3 weeks total. Two of which are for rooting and one is for a little veg/hardening off. It also gives me time to spot the runts and select the ones I want to use. I did notice some sludge in there but HONESTLY i thought it was some of the olivias cloning gel i used.
    I wonder if
    -this is olivias cloning gel and it is host for bacteria and is where my cyananobacteria starts
    OR
    -Its actually the cyanobacteria (due to either nutes in mix or temperature).

    BUT if it was on my stem/root collar, it "could" actually contaminate my netpot/hydroton and leak into my bucket, eh?

    Also, i run 6" net pots in veg and bloom. In veg i use 3 gallon buckets and in bloom i use 5 gallon buckets. I notice most make there own net pot/lids. Coukd this greatly affect saturation vs water level?

    Help....
     
  15. Well GC this is my last resort before switching from AN and not GH. I got a lot of there sensi grow/bloom and all there other stuff except there expert level. I have two main issues right now. Ive grown for almost a year now and just cant get it squared away. Before changing to GH and the lucas formula, I want to give it one more shot. After all I do have all this stuff still.

    First- I have been fighting small root systems due to either pythium or "brown slime algae". I havent been able to figure out the source but have been learing on the way. Ive learned I need bennes to fight pathogens, I need cooler water, ect. But the pathogen is visible from the day the roots hit the water in veg till harvest. I still pull 4oz of fire but the ph drops like crazy (pythium would do this) and 2x daily maint kills my social life. Further research shows H&G RE has anerobic bacteria and olivias cloning gel has organic material. Combine the two and you have pathogens and food. I put HG RE and clonex in my cloner and run for 3wk on average. I first dip them in olivias gel (buying clonex next btw). Ive always noticed a brown slime in the cloner right up by the root/stem crown. I always thought it was the olivias gel was "soo good" it could stick through out 3 wks of aeration. When it is probably pythium in the begining. I never made a corelation, so I havent made the change yet to see results. I get white roots in there but if im breeding the pythium and then feeding the shit out of it in veg, im doomed. SO, giving that I fix it this next round, it shows up about day 2-3 in veg when roots first hit water, then I know I havent fixed a thing. AT that point ill be chasing my tail.

    Recently I started using Heisenbergs tea from RUI. I have noticed vast improvement since ditching the pirana and voodoo. I have to fight the phthium first, before complete turn around. I have lots of new root growth there but its going to be a slower process then SIMPLY keeping the pathogens away from day one with bennes. I know this and cant give those results ATM.

    Ok now then, my problems in veg are as follows. (before running tea)

    *I get brown slime on root mas as soon as roots hit water. I lower water level to 1" below but its still there.
    *I get one small root mass coming from net pot. It gets tangled and stays "tight" and then opens up as it hits water.
    *It doesnt get too large in the bucket
    *I get a decent amount of wilting
    *The brown slime works its way up from in the water, to up the root system to bottom of net pot, but doesnt visually go inside.
    *pirana and voodoo keep the roots under water really white all through veg.
    *I start to get a MG def showing at center blade, leaf tip of some fan leafs.
    *Ph seems to climb FAST, like 1.0 in 1-2 days.

    Bloom

    *Roots seem to pack on about double size but still half the size of a 5g bucket.
    *The wilting hadnt gotten worse in the last few weeks of veg but now first few weeks I have new wilt going on.
    *My nutrients change, and im adding a lot more.
    *I notice my roots turn to a tan color, then the same brown forms more noticable from the water line to net pot.
    *Once I get to the point of using nirvana my roots are brownish stained. Cant tell if its from nutes.
    *still small root system, half bucket
    *Wilting stops but MG def is MUCH more pronounced. Get rusting down sides of most all fan leafs. Lower fan leaves drop off. Makes me feel like im over feeding and its burn.
    *Ph from wk 3 to harvest drops from 5.6 to 4.8 in 12-24 hrs for the first few weeks. I start setting ph at 6.0 and it will fall to 4.6 or so in 12-24 hours.
    *im in there 2x a day.
    *I have tried less nutes, get small growth and not as deep green color.
    *I try more nutes, I get less water uptake but then I start getting transpiration issues and everytime I check ppms, its risen.

    This is NOT like your average rot, Rot eats your roots and makes a brown nasty shit looking snot and your roots are mushy and you can grab and pull off the roots but cant wash the shit nasty snot off. Mine is like light brown sime algae, I can wash it off but it always comes back (I dont feel Ive ever been using the bennes right or in the correct doses, I have to admit that) So keep in mind in my explanation, Im not kicking a dead horse with nasty nasty root rot. This slime causes issues, I believe, because it robs certain nutes, removing the anions and robbbing pressure DO. It houses it self along side each root, smothering them. Basterds.

    I use RO water and thought there was no buffer, wondering if thats why I had PH swings I started to run tests.

    I have tried creating a ph buffer with sensi cal grow/bloom at 1/4 strength 1/2 strength and 3/4 strength. Seems the problem was getting worse as I was upping my amounts of cal/mag so I cant make a corelation if it was one or the other and the whole test was skewed.

    Then I started using different percentages of my ro to my well water. started at 1/4 and moved to 1/8th. That gave it a more solid buffer. But its not like anything has improved so I have no idea if its beneficial or not.

    Now thats my story and im finally to my question. I am going to NOT use my cloner, NOT use H&G RE and start using bennes, in there correct amounts from day one. I hope to NOT see any brown slime what so ever.

    *"IF" this next time around this TEA fixes everything (which I hope it will, SO far my water/nute uptake is doubled and there growing like crazy, but again, I still am fighting a pothogen so results are skewed), what should I be feeding these ladies veg ang bloom? Seems less is more, if you have a big root system, which ive never had. How the hell do I know if I need a stronger strength or not? I know if burning its too hot.

    Then how do I top off? I have indevidual buckets in veg, so if they drink a gallon a day, wouldnt I be straight water by day 3-4? Wouldnt that be like 0ppms? Should I add small amonts back like 200ppms of phed h20?

    Bloom buckets are linked together with control bucket, It holds 21 gallons of water at 1" below net pots. They drop to about 2" below net pots right now (on flush so not sure the judge). I need to add about a gallon per bucket to get back to the 1" mark. Same story, just h20 or diluted solution.

    Sorry for such stupid questions, Can anyone provide a link or suggest somthing reputable? Ive tried trial and error. Just not getting it.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  16. What's the temp of your soup....sound like its too hot....switching will not solve your problems, my guess is it will get worse

    What's the temp at the top of your plants, and what's the temp of the room? A/c?
     
  17. [quote name='"Tihspeed"']What's the temp of your soup....sound like its too hot....switching will not solve your problems, my guess is it will get worse

    What's the temp at the top of your plants, and what's the temp of the room? A/c?[/quote]

    I have a dehumidifier, ac, automated temp controlled intake and exhaust.

    Room temp
    -tried 75 and 75 leaf temp
    -tried 76-77 and 79-80 leaf temp

    No change

    Soup temp averages 68-72

    I can raise it, but cat get it lower or keep it under 70 for more than a few hours.

    The guys running the TEA claim this slime is special and doesn't matter if you ran 63-65 temps, you would still have it. They have success with 72-76 temp soup and TEA. I just have to start with fresh cuttings to know if it works in my situation or not.

    I was debating a chiller but i have friends and other people at the hydro store havent heard of this issue. They run flawlessly keeping temps under 75.

    First sign of the slime is in cloner and the temps get up to 78ish. Then it shows back up 2-3 days in veg at 70ish * temp.
     
  18. Dustybowlz,
    I really feel you will be fine going forward, especially if you ever decide to start from scratch and inoculate beneficials from the very beginning by spraying down the rock wool and pouring down the tea through the netpot. I feel this is a case of bennies taking longer because of an existing condition in the res. I hope all goes well for you and please do continue to update us on your progress.

    BTW, I have a chiller but I gotta be honest, I bought it before I was introduced to the tea concept. Now I think I am going to run the chiller around 69-71 range to not slow down the benificials too much. Beneficials thrive in the mid 70's.
     

  19. Thanks, Ya I have had 2 full harvests before I found the tea. I am too far along in bloom to do anything about it. I just hope I can save veg in time.

    Only now am I starting to see the power of the tea. I have to completely re adjust my feed strengths since now my water uptake has increased soo much.
     

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