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05-09-2006, 09:29 AM
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,814
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the first brother to brother convo on this
me and my brother had a debate that just ended, unfortunately we werent finished, so maybe i can post a follow up later. this is about drug use, mainly. i hope you sit down, maybe pop an adderall and read this. im proud.
Big Bobby W 67 (2:55:29 AM):i had the greatest conversation with mom and dad Big Bobby W 67 (2:55:34 AM):recently BigfootJHW (2:55:43 AM): really, what was it about Big Bobby W 67 (2:56:07 AM):me and mom were just talking, and i just asked her what she "knew" about pot since she brought it up Big Bobby W 67 (2:56:26 AM):it lasted a half hour till dad got home and it graduated to all drugs BigfootJHW (2:56:43 AM): what did they say BigfootJHW (2:56:49 AM): she say, i guess Big Bobby W 67 (2:57:30 AM):biiiig back and forth b/w me and dad, but i totally changed theyre perspectives and dad taught me some stuff as well. she admitted she didnt know anything other than the decade propoganda Big Bobby W 67 (2:57:40 AM):so we walked through it together Big Bobby W 67 (2:58:07 AM):it was very engrossing for two hours BigfootJHW (2:58:18 AM): you didn't find it weird? Big Bobby W 67 (2:58:40 AM):no, i wanted to know what they thought Big Bobby W 67 (2:58:47 AM):and i corrected them on most points BigfootJHW (2:59:22 AM): what did they say at the end Big Bobby W 67 (3:00:00 AM):"acid making your brain bleed" "xtc makes holes in your brain" that type of stuff....they agreed that it should be personal choice, and they agreed with my model of legalization Big Bobby W 67 (3:00:14 AM):really cool BigfootJHW (3:00:41 AM): well that's pretty cool Big Bobby W 67 (3:00:45 AM):si Big Bobby W 67 (3:00:55 AM):you know mexico legalized everything? BigfootJHW (3:01:12 AM): yeah i heard that on the news Big Bobby W 67 (3:01:15 AM):thats gonna be so disastrous, people have no idea Big Bobby W 67 (3:01:25 AM):its gonna be Needle Park times a thousand BigfootJHW (3:01:58 AM): probably Big Bobby W 67 (3:02:06 AM):our govt is trying to interfere, and i kinda agree with it BigfootJHW (3:02:33 AM): why, if that's what they choose Big Bobby W 67 (3:02:46 AM):because dude, its not the right way: BigfootJHW (3:03:08 AM): what's the right way Big Bobby W 67 (3:03:30 AM):instead of regulating, the govt is giving up... Big Bobby W 67 (3:04:00 AM):these newly legalized drugs are gonna attract more tourism Big Bobby W 67 (3:04:22 AM):and these newly legalized drugs still need a source, which means organized crime is gonna skyrocket Big Bobby W 67 (3:04:58 AM):when this comepletely blows up, its gonna eradicate any chances for the US to consider legalization BigfootJHW (3:04:59 AM): yeah, it's a problem when it's only legal to have it, someway you still have to get it Big Bobby W 67 (3:05:00 AM):which sucks Big Bobby W 67 (3:06:18 AM):theyll just point and say, look what legalization did to mexico Big Bobby W 67 (3:06:31 AM):really depressing BigfootJHW (3:06:59 AM): not as depressing as people not eating Big Bobby W 67 (3:07:04 AM):i thought we were evolving Big Bobby W 67 (3:07:05 AM):meh Big Bobby W 67 (3:07:14 AM):im american, i dont care BigfootJHW (3:07:28 AM): precisely BigfootJHW (3:07:32 AM): depressing Big Bobby W 67 (3:08:16 AM):ignorance is bliss, remember Big Bobby W 67 (3:08:21 AM):abuh BigfootJHW (3:08:31 AM): abuh? Big Bobby W 67 (3:09:02 AM):the sound chris griffin made when told he couldnt see his dad anymore BigfootJHW (3:09:13 AM): hahahahaha Big Bobby W 67 (3:09:39 AM):but our country will be safer as soon as the drug czar is someone who actually has knowledge about....drugs BigfootJHW (3:11:25 AM): yeah i guess, i think the islam thing is a little bit more important thought Big Bobby W 67 (3:12:16 AM):really? why dont we get our own country organized and stabile before we keep pouring money out BigfootJHW (3:13:04 AM): i actually agree, but that means not messing with mexico as well Big Bobby W 67 (3:13:22 AM):this is not an issue to be swept aside, drug users who still contribute to our society do not vote because they are demonized by our government Big Bobby W 67 (3:13:31 AM):ok then Big Bobby W 67 (3:13:58 AM):you can not have unity when personal choice is obstructed Big Bobby W 67 (3:14:19 AM):we need to eradicate the number one cause of organized crime BigfootJHW (3:14:19 AM): gay people do not vote because they are demonized by our government Big Bobby W 67 (3:14:23 AM):no no Big Bobby W 67 (3:14:33 AM):thats a only social taboo now, they finally got their rights Big Bobby W 67 (3:14:36 AM):besides BigfootJHW (3:14:50 AM): they have no rights in north carolina Big Bobby W 67 (3:15:00 AM):every arguement for homosexual marriage can be turned around for usage of drugs BigfootJHW (3:15:21 AM): what do you mean Big Bobby W 67 (3:15:53 AM):"its personal choice" "it doesnt intrude on others' rights" BigfootJHW (3:17:02 AM): sure, so either one is fine with me Big Bobby W 67 (3:17:14 AM):PLUS, if the government truly cares about the safety of its citizens BigfootJHW (3:17:20 AM): gotta pee Big Bobby W 67 (3:18:15 AM):then it would regulate the distribution of drugs similarly to alcohol, so that the drug consumer would not be harmed by unpredictable street drugs Big Bobby W 67 (3:20:55 AM):yea there would still be a black market for those under 18/21, but that is inevitable...there is that black market today for alcohol and nicotine which each kill more people than crack, meth, heroin combined everyday. BigfootJHW (3:21:46 AM): back from peeing -- which is all cool and everything, but when large numbers of people in america can't even afford seeing a doctor or a dentist, there are a few more important issues to worry about Big Bobby W 67 (3:22:23 AM):Big pharmeceuticals are on a teeter totter towards recession. they could tax the drugs that they distribute. Big Bobby W 67 (3:22:44 AM):ok ill give you that, but give me a scenario that could change so quickly....im not saying its the foremost problem Big Bobby W 67 (3:23:06 AM):im saying its an easily corrected problem that sucks money out of our system Big Bobby W 67 (3:23:37 AM):its a thorn in our side that could easily be plucked to ensure focus on more widespread problems BigfootJHW (3:24:00 AM): that's true, but that doesn't change the fact it would take tons of work to persuade the majority of people to change their minds about it Big Bobby W 67 (3:24:42 AM):as opposed to the tons of work it would take to raise the general economy and standard of living? Big Bobby W 67 (3:25:52 AM):im saying if open minds were present, this could be changed in a day. there arent many social problems in our country that perspective alone prohibits progress Big Bobby W 67 (3:26:11 AM):(a day is an exaggeration) BigfootJHW (3:26:28 AM): yes, as opposed to that, the majority of people in america are afraid of drugs, and they're the ones who vote - if open minds were present, a million problems could be solved, if open minds were present, we wouldn't have the president we have now Big Bobby W 67 (3:27:06 AM):how many "problems" today are perpetuated solely through mindset? Big Bobby W 67 (3:27:16 AM):as opposed to resources etc. BigfootJHW (3:27:32 AM): i don't understand Big Bobby W 67 (3:27:39 AM):like you said Big Bobby W 67 (3:28:06 AM):its the fear and inherent taboo of drugs that prevent this from being in a forum where it could make change Big Bobby W 67 (3:28:28 AM):politicians wont promote it, their campaign would flounder before it started Big Bobby W 67 (3:28:45 AM):its a bargaining chip to campaign FOR the war on drugs BigfootJHW (3:29:13 AM): it's the fear of most social problems today that prevent them from being discussed - it's not just drugs, it's a multitude of things Big Bobby W 67 (3:30:40 AM):ah but what other problems today have such widespread consequences in every aspect of society? im only talking mindset, other problems have complications like the resources to deal with them, the organization to arrange them....we have the resources to deal with the war on drugs Big Bobby W 67 (3:30:47 AM):its only mindset that prohibits it Big Bobby W 67 (3:32:03 AM):if youre taking a test, you finish the easiest ones first and save your valuable time for the tough ones. this is the analogy. BigfootJHW (3:32:20 AM): i agree -- my point is, you won't get people to change their mindset, the people who agree with you point of view already vote for like-minded people, and those who would oppose it are the baby-boomers, who have the voting base Big Bobby W 67 (3:33:26 AM):but is that really so? 1 in twenty americans ADMIT that they regularly use marijuana (i hate statistics by the way) BigfootJHW (3:33:53 AM): life isn't a test -- the whole "save the hardest problems don't work in life", drugs don't have the capacity to erase humanity from the planet - nuclear proliferation does Big Bobby W 67 (3:35:13 AM):ok but in order to appropriate more resources towards solving those problems, why not eradicate a money burner? BigfootJHW (3:35:50 AM): dude, i'm not arguing against you, i'm just saying good luck in trying to change someone's mind Big Bobby W 67 (3:36:56 AM):i know, but only through debates like this will people change their mind, more information needs to be put out there, the decade changing anti drug campaigns need to quit Big Bobby W 67 (3:37:28 AM):the govt is feeding fire to the problem theyre trying to eliminate Big Bobby W 67 (3:37:48 AM):here's the kicker: Big Bobby W 67 (3:39:10 AM):you say we need to focus more on other things, but there is a War on Drugs, its a campaign against personal freedom. since there is already effort and resources going towards this campaign, it isnt uncalled for to propose drastic change…especially when the status quo is failing miserable Big Bobby W 67 (3:39:12 AM):y* Big Bobby W 67 (3:39:45 AM):its not working, lets try something else Big Bobby W 67 (3:40:08 AM):human evolution didnt stop at the thumbs BigfootJHW (3:40:41 AM): again, i agree, i'm just playing devil's advocate and saying what people will say back -- no it didn't, b/c pandas have thumbs too BigfootJHW (3:41:02 AM): and so do koalas actually, one of their six digits Big Bobby W 67 (3:41:20 AM):ha touche.... but i can shoot down every arguement there is, trust me dad threw a lot at me Big Bobby W 67 (3:41:47 AM):its blind demonization, and it needs to cease BigfootJHW (3:42:12 AM): hahaha he probably did, but the thing is, logic alone doesn't always carry the day Big Bobby W 67 (3:42:42 AM):but proof does, see you take the logic, and then you apply it to today's society Big Bobby W 67 (3:43:06 AM):its not my fault that people are ignorant, but i am willing to enlighten them Big Bobby W 67 (3:44:28 AM):i despise the hypochristian complex that pervades our society and i plan to change it one person at a time Big Bobby W 67 (3:44:34 AM):thats my flag BigfootJHW (3:44:44 AM): no, my point is proof, logic, truth don't always carry the day -- you can argue till you're blue in the face and all somebody might say to you is, "you make sense, but my minister/mother/father say it's bad so i don't agree with you Big Bobby W 67 (3:45:15 AM):we're back at the authority problem Big Bobby W 67 (3:45:40 AM):if pro-legalization advocates want change, they go to where those people just pointed Big Bobby W 67 (3:45:45 AM):and they argue again Big Bobby W 67 (3:45:52 AM):and slowly climb the ladder BigfootJHW (3:46:47 AM): which would be great and all, but at the end of the day, if people can't afford to eat and pay for their health, they're not going to be worried about getting messed up BigfootJHW (3:47:05 AM): they won't have the money to pay for these new legal drugs Big Bobby W 67 (3:47:38 AM):but see its not about the "temporary irreality", to some of these people its a religion upon itself BigfootJHW (3:47:59 AM): what Big Bobby W 67 (3:48:10 AM):what what? BigfootJHW (3:48:28 AM): what is temporary irreality Big Bobby W 67 (3:48:42 AM):getting fucked up BigfootJHW (3:48:54 AM): oh Big Bobby W 67 (3:49:31 AM):there is not a single reason why this shouldnt happen Big Bobby W 67 (3:49:53 AM):and people who advocate marijuana alone are idiots BigfootJHW (3:50:26 AM): reason doesn't enter into ti BigfootJHW (3:50:27 AM): it Big Bobby W 67 (3:50:34 AM):ha Big Bobby W 67 (3:50:50 AM):then replace reason with argument BigfootJHW (3:51:44 AM): intelligent argument doesn't always carry the day, if it did we wouldn't be at war in iraq right now Big Bobby W 67 (3:52:03 AM):this is unrelated and ridiculous Big Bobby W 67 (3:52:43 AM):there were documented weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, how do we know? we looked at the friggin receipt Big Bobby W 67 (3:53:29 AM):seriously though, yes they had the weapons, but this is unrelated and its partisan Big Bobby W 67 (3:53:47 AM):this isnt analogous to the WOD at all BigfootJHW (3:54:47 AM): i'm not trying to start a different arugement, i'm just saying most people don't argue anymore, they just say, i see your point but..... -- like i said, i didn't want to start a different argument, but many other countries just as bad as iraq have those same weapons and more, not to mention much harsher internal measures i.e. saudi arabia BigfootJHW (3:54:50 AM): ok no more Big Bobby W 67 (3:55:20 AM):and no, it may not be intelligent arguement that wins, but the incessant pounding of these values that needs to occur in order to make change Big Bobby W 67 (3:55:39 AM):everyone's got their drug Big Bobby W 67 (3:55:41 AM):everyone Big Bobby W 67 (3:56:33 AM):whether its religion, sex, caffiene, a regimented schedule, physical activity, psylocibin mushrooms Big Bobby W 67 (3:56:36 AM):etc Big Bobby W 67 (3:57:08 AM):why allow some and not others, doesnt outlawing nature seem a bit...unnatural? BigfootJHW (3:57:20 AM): how is a regimented schedule a drug BigfootJHW (3:57:27 AM): it's not something you take into your body Big Bobby W 67 (3:57:30 AM):man thats the most common Big Bobby W 67 (3:57:41 AM):people are so secure without having to think Big Bobby W 67 (3:57:54 AM):they get up go to work go home, eat sleep fuck repeat BigfootJHW (3:57:57 AM): but that's not a drug Big Bobby W 67 (3:58:03 AM):yes it is! BigfootJHW (3:58:07 AM): that's a verb Big Bobby W 67 (3:58:39 AM):yes it is, it is a drug that makes the person feel comfortable just as much as religion is a drug BigfootJHW (3:59:14 AM): it's an alteration of your mood, but it's not a physical substance that can be regulated, measured and sold Big Bobby W 67 (3:59:15 AM):it makes a person feel something that they otherwise wouldnt if it werent there Big Bobby W 67 (3:59:24 AM): its still a drug Big Bobby W 67 (3:59:44 AM):the tangibility doesnt matter Big Bobby W 67 (3:59:52 AM):we're talking freedom of choice BigfootJHW (4:00:48 AM): that's ridiculous, so everyone time i put on my headphones i'm taking a drug -- the tangibility does matter, details are what make lawyers Big Bobby W 67 (4:01:39 AM):lawyers ruined this country...90% of them give the good 10% a bad name, anyway....yes what i am sayin is exactly that Big Bobby W 67 (4:01:55 AM):someone want to trip on acid, you want to put in a cd Big Bobby W 67 (4:02:09 AM):but instead you only can legally listen to pop music Big Bobby W 67 (4:02:18 AM):jazz rocknroll etc are illegal Big Bobby W 67 (4:02:23 AM):only pop music is allowed BigfootJHW (4:02:29 AM): ? Big Bobby W 67 (4:02:47 AM):just follow me here down hypothetical lane BigfootJHW (4:02:52 AM): oh BigfootJHW (4:02:55 AM): i see what you're saying Big Bobby W 67 (4:02:56 AM):say only pop music is allowed Big Bobby W 67 (4:03:20 AM): (symbolizingalcohol, nicotene, caffiene <-- one of the worst mentally) Big Bobby W 67 (4:03:32 AM):but youre still gonna listen to what music makes you happy man BigfootJHW (4:04:12 AM): yeah it's pretty dumb to have some regulated and some not Big Bobby W 67 (4:04:39 AM):so why not stop criminalizing personal freedom and let them do what they will, the law should step in only when a person's choice intrudes upon another's freedom Big Bobby W 67 (4:04:46 AM):thats it Big Bobby W 67 (4:04:48 AM):thats done Big Bobby W 67 (4:05:03 AM):wrap it up, what arguement to that is there? BigfootJHW (4:05:13 AM): there isn't Big Bobby W 67 (4:05:37 AM):exactly and thats how every debate ive had ended, even though i didnt mean to Big Bobby W 67 (4:05:49 AM):so we gotta keep talking Big Bobby W 67 (4:06:06 AM):those who are dedicated need to keep arguing BigfootJHW (4:06:09 AM): that's what i'm trying to say, arguments are not the end of the line, people accept things on faith without thinking about them BigfootJHW (4:06:55 AM): i've tried changing people's minds, but many times they just say, you have good points and i can't argue you, i just don't think you're right Big Bobby W 67 (4:07:12 AM):but when you get down to it and show them that they are humiliating themselves as well as impeding progress...you can change them Big Bobby W 67 (4:07:51 AM): “you have good points and i can't argue you, i just don't think you're right”...if thats the truth, humanity is fucked Big Bobby W 67 (4:08:04 AM):if someone as intelligent as you cant understand this, we're done Big Bobby W 67 (4:08:15 AM):evolution stops BigfootJHW (4:08:22 AM): dude, i totally understand BigfootJHW (4:08:28 AM): i'm just trying to say that other people won't Big Bobby W 67 (4:08:41 AM):oh ok Big Bobby W 67 (4:09:00 AM):still, when i think about it...i try not to realize that, otherwise why would I keep trying? BigfootJHW (4:09:05 AM): that's been my whole point, that other people won't want to hear it b/c of the emotions involved Big Bobby W 67 (4:09:19 AM):BUT GAYS HAD THEIR DAY Big Bobby W 67 (4:09:30 AM):INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES HAD THEYRE DAY Big Bobby W 67 (4:09:33 AM):its not impossible BigfootJHW (4:09:44 AM): not it's not BigfootJHW (4:09:53 AM): gays still haven't had their day, btw Big Bobby W 67 (4:09:54 AM):its gonna be tough reversing 100 years of govt bullshit propagnda Big Bobby W 67 (4:10:06 AM):well they got the foot in the door hBigfootJHW (4:10:11 AM): yes, yes they do Big Bobby W 67 (4:10:31 AM):is that a closet door? Big Bobby W 67 (4:10:35 AM):HA BigfootJHW (4:11:01 AM): libertarians think they same way, they very much want to legalize drugs, and there are many more libertarians in congress now Big Bobby W 67 (4:11:14 AM):libertarians are idiots for the most part Big Bobby W 67 (4:11:26 AM):i will generalize that and not take it back Big Bobby W 67 (4:11:28 AM):idiots Big Bobby W 67 (4:11:48 AM):because those same people are nazis when it comes to gun control Big Bobby W 67 (4:12:02 AM):but yea its a step BigfootJHW (4:12:03 AM): which is true, but they are possible allies in that they are working to legalize drugs Big Bobby W 67 (4:12:13 AM):i acknowledge BigfootJHW (4:12:39 AM): not true liberatarians, hunter s thompson was a registered libertarian, and he owned lots of guns BigfootJHW (4:12:49 AM): sadly BigfootJHW (4:13:38 AM): sadly b/c of how he died Big Bobby W 67 (4:13:49 AM):he was also a writer, which means he only wrote about our state of affairs, never did a damn thing to change them....you just reinforce my idiot statement Big Bobby W 67 (4:13:55 AM):how did he die Big Bobby W 67 (4:14:17 AM):i just wish marijuana-alone advocates would cease to be though Big Bobby W 67 (4:14:21 AM):theyre all idiots BigfootJHW (4:16:48 AM): wrong, you don't know him, he was awesome -- he ran for sherrif of denver on the "freak ticket" (that was the real name), his only platform being drug legalization Big Bobby W 67 (4:17:09 AM):i retract my statement being on no information Big Bobby W 67 (4:17:17 AM):that was ignorant of me BigfootJHW (4:17:25 AM): he told jerry garcia numerous times "if you damn hippies would just vote you would solve alot of your problems" Big Bobby W 67 (4:17:42 AM):ah but what do they have to vote for Big Bobby W 67 (4:17:56 AM):everywhere they turn its something they dont agree with BigfootJHW (4:18:14 AM): the guy he was running against had a crew cut, so hunter thompson shaved his head and called him "my long-haired oppenent" Big Bobby W 67 (4:19:02 AM):pro pot people want to push their ideals, but coke and heroin are quite the medical miracles. LSD is an ergot fungus, not only will it rid you of your migraine it will also cleanse your third eye. MDMA (xtc) is doing some very pleasing things with depression BigfootJHW (4:19:17 AM): that was his point, if you don't like what you see, get involved and change it, don't just sit back and bitch, that's why he ran Big Bobby W 67 (4:19:23 AM):even thought i dont agree with treatments for depression Big Bobby W 67 (4:19:36 AM):yea but thats not the course BigfootJHW (4:19:46 AM): mdma is also doing some amazing things with degenerating dopamine receptors Big Bobby W 67 (4:20:11 AM):and pills that are already prescribed dont? Big Bobby W 67 (4:20:49 AM):i mean hell, at least your having fun with MDMA....but i dont agree with treatments for depression BigfootJHW (4:20:54 AM): it's a leading cause of parkinson's disease in animal studies, no, not to the degree, that's why they're legalized, see we have to learn all the brain chemistry of this stuff in pharmacology Big Bobby W 67 (4:21:03 AM):dude dont give me animals BigfootJHW (4:21:25 AM): i have to go to bed, my other half is mad at me Big Bobby W 67 (4:21:29 AM):please dont give me animals, i know that youre the doctor Big Bobby W 67 (4:21:31 AM):ok Big Bobby W 67 (4:21:41 AM):night BigfootJHW (4:21:43 AM): she has to be at work by 5 30 Big Bobby W 67 (4:21:54 AM):take it easy BigfootJHW (4:21:56 AM): later dood Last edited by scoobydooby67; 05-10-2006 at 06:47 AM. |
    
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05-09-2006, 11:11 PM
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 54
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too long didnt read but way to go
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05-09-2006, 11:26 PM
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Banned
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there were small sections i skimmed thru, but i read atleast 90% of it. You both make a lot of very good points and it was a very nice read. Always nice to hear parents views are set right.
possibly part 2? or was that all of it? either way, thanks for the read scoob |
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05-09-2006, 11:30 PM
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astro
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 1,421
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I stopped after that bit about Mexico.
Yeah, personal use is decrimed. But every other part of the bill is going to make it harder to get, sell, and smuggle drugs. It gives powers to police that they didn't have (like local police being able to investigate drug dealers) and overall is definatly *not* going to lead to a climate of tourism. Well, I shouldn't say *definatly*, as I suppose there will always be someone willing to sell to tourists. But there's definatly going to be a crackdown on dealing after this bill passes thanks to all the new powers, so I'm not to concerned with anything getting out of control down there.
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05-09-2006, 11:32 PM
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: illinois
Posts: 2,687
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i'm on adderall and couldn't sit to read it all. i gotta get some sleep i'm going crazy
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