The Torture Effect

[Rasta_Man]

LONG POST - - IN DEPTH
please only reply if you read this in entirety

A big issue in both American and Canadian politics right now is torture.

As most Americans are well aware, George Bush is pushing the American people to accept the violation of geneva convention and abandon what the values it's known for, for the sake of supposed security.

Now, I will bring you a tragic story that most of you have likely not heard about.

This is the story of a Canadian Software engineer; Maher Arar.

Having moved to Canada in 1988 from Syria to avoid military service and remain true to his pacafist beleifs and avoid mandetory military service, at the age of 17. He earned his computer engineering degree at a very highly reputed Quebec university (McGill).

He is married to his fellow Syrian-born wife, Monia Mazigh, whom holds a PhD in finance, and how two young children, both born in Canada. He is tri-lingual and works for the provincial Ontario government.

A true Canadian, in my mind, living a life to be proud of.

Now... here is the twist

Mr. Arar and his family were returning to Montreal in late 2002 from a Tunisian vacation, requiring a stop-over at JFK International, where he was subsequently detained by U.S. Immigration Officals.

Despite holding an entirley valid Canadian passport, due to underwhelming substantial evidence, supplied by the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), which, in review was disproved and found to be entirley unsound, Mr. Arar was deported to the Syrian government as a 'terrorist'.

He was put immediatley into solitary confinement in the Far'Falastin detention centre near Damascus. This facility is condemned by the Canadian government and Amnesty International for their inhumane treatment of prisoners.

Canadians officals were informed on October 10th and little was done to help redeem and release the innocent Mr. Arar. For nearly 11 months, he was beaten, tortured and abused. He was forced into signing a confession stating that he had been training in Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan.

Despite being routinley visited almost a dozen times by Canadian ambassadors, no help came. He was threatened he would be severely punished if he told the ambassadors about the abuse and torture. He couldn't stand it anymore and defied them on the 7th visit, when conditions improved slightly for him.

His wife's attempts to rally support and to proclaim his innocence were finally sucessful and resulted in his release and return to Canada.

Since them, Mr. Arar has encounter signifcant troubles getting a job due to the publicity of this event.

In summary, over the last several years there have been two Inquiries and Canada has apologized for their failure, being highly critical of government organizations which vastly failed Mr. Arar.

The American government has denied reponsibility for their actions or knowledge of his treatment. Maher Arar's name has now offically been cleared and an apology issued by the Canadian Government, nearly 4 years after his deporation.

Now, I ask you to learn more about this. Consider the rammifications of how easily one of the best socialist democracies on Earth could have so badly failed a citizen. Then consider the rammifications of american torture of supposed "suspected terrorists". Most importantly learn what exactly a "suspected terrorist" is, learn how easily this will be able to happen to you.

I feel embarassed and ashamed of my country for betraying this man so badly. I just hope he can live the rest of his life in peace and security.

More Information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

[Tetrahydrojuana]

Yeah, I read about this yesterday at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14897315/
it said he was "kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released". This is pretty fucked up. The man should be given some kind of reparation for the bullshit they put him through. Maybe a couple million so he never has to work again, seeing as to how he'll never be able to get another job again.

[DirtyPete]

This is just one story. I don't doubt that things like this, or worse, happen to innocent people all the time. Unfortunately because of some of the new anti-terror (or as I like to call them, anti-freedom) laws that were passed by many western countries after 9/11 there really is no accountability and no way for a lot of innocent people being accused of terrorist suspicion to defend themselves.

It sucks, but expect it to get a lot worse (especially after the next terrorist attack in a western nation). PRetty soon people of all races are going to be fearing their own governments. People who speak up will suspiciously dissapear. People will be encouraged (not only through incentive programs but also through intimidation tactics) to spy on their own neighbors for anti-government behavior,

Hopefully I'm just being paranoid, but unfortunately the chances that this won't happen are very small in my opinion.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by DirtyPete

This is just one story. I don't doubt that things like this, or worse, happen to innocent people all the time. Unfortunately because of some of the new anti-terror (or as I like to call them, anti-freedom) laws that were passed by many western countries after 9/11 there really is no accountability and no way for a lot of innocent people being accused of terrorist suspicion to defend themselves.

It sucks, but expect it to get a lot worse (especially after the next terrorist attack in a western nation). PRetty soon people of all races are going to be fearing their own governments. People who speak up will suspiciously dissapear. People will be encouraged (not only through incentive programs but also through intimidation tactics) to spy on their own neighbors for anti-government behavior,

Hopefully I'm just being paranoid, but unfortunately the chances that this won't happen are very small in my opinion.

You are fully correct.

We're heading towards 1984. I don't think even George Orwell could believe how accurate he had been.

rep +

[xXMelkorXx]

I agree with ya Pete. It may take a while for it to actually reach that point. It will build up slowly, boiling, waiting to come to the surface. They could not turn our nation into a police-state overnight. It will take time for them.

[DirtyPete]

Originally Posted by xXMelkorXx

I agree with ya Pete. It may take a while for it to actually reach that point. It will build up slowly, boiling, waiting to come to the surface. They could not turn our nation into a police-state overnight. It will take time for them.

"it is said that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will never jump out."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

We are the frogs.

[xXMelkorXx]

We are the frogs indeed.

I just hope people will come to their senses soon. And realize what is going on around them before its too late.

[Orangecrush]

I heard about this the other day as well and everytime I see something I fear for what our nation is in store for. We really messed up with this. I actually had a discussion with my parents about it all last night and my dad said that because the people we are fighting against are being considered terrorists or extremists, the laws of the Geneva Convention do not protect them. I thought this was an extremely bogus way out and he said that is what they are going with. The Geneva Convention is supposed to protect the nation's enemy "soldiers."

The thing that scared me the most was when Bush was doing an interview with Matt Lauer(sp?) and when he was asked about the secret CIA prisons that have been discovered and in the news recently and how it should be wrong to torture people in these prisons, Bush responded with whats wrong with that? Where in the law does it say that we can't have secret prisons? And the sad fact of the matter is, he is right to my knowledge. Where in the law does it say there can't be secret CIA prisons?

The only stark comparison I want people to think about is when was the last time there was a war and people were being held and tortured in secret prisons/camps?

Phasen sehnen sich der König

[Rasta_Man]

Pat Buchanun (sp?) reported on this and called us Soviet Canuckistan

[POTSTYLZ]

I am afraid for the future. Our rights are being violated far to often. What stops the government from taking its own citizens who oppose this atrocity, and declare them "potential terrorists". where does it stop? They are taking our freedom and stomping on it. I pity our children, who will face the ramifications of our mistakes. We the people who are supposedly in charge are giving our governments to much power. I say let freedom stand!!!

[Predator1]

Originally Posted by DirtyPete

"it is said that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will never jump out."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

We are the frogs.

I'll rep that, and call it sig-worthy.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by xXMelkorXx

We are the frogs indeed.

I just hope people will come to their senses soon. And realize what is going on around them before its too late.

We should take a lesson from the Hungarians.

[emagdnim13]

i was listening to national public radio today and they were discussing how if the geneva convention is altered how the bush administration wants it, that would also allow american forces who are captured to be treated just as bad if not worse.


i haven't heard a single person talk about that, there are prisoners of war on both sides.

[xXMelkorXx]

Reading it again just makes me so sad. We cant let them to this. We have to. Please.

[Opivy]

Torture and the effects of it have always interested me.

It's really tough though, because where do we draw the line? What's Torture?

Ofcourse alot of interrogation techniques could be considered psychological torture to an extent (sleep deprivation, mind games, threats towards the subject/family members) But in a physical sense is completely harmless.

Should this be aloud?

What about less harmful forms of physical torture such as water-boarding. This is relatively safe and a useful way of extracting information.
(edit, and does not harm the person in a physical sense)

I have heard people tell stories of accidental deaths during water-boarding but i don't believe it for a second.