Demolition Expert On WTC 7

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"This is professional work, without any doubt."

I guess he must just have been smoking too much that day.

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We already knew this, I mean, the owner of the building said he would 'pull' it. Undeniable proof right there. [/sarcasm]

I've already seen this but its a good vid for people who haven't seen it.

Here is your proof.

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Conspiracy theorist say World Trade Center 7 is the best proof for controlled demolition because it wasn't hit by Airliners and only had a few fires. It also had a confession from the building owner who said he "Pulled" it. But this is deceptive because while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open it easily tilted over to reach building 7. Below is evidence conspiracy theorist are wrong.

As you can see from the graphic below, all the buildings just as far away from both towers were hit. The others were either very short buildings which didn't have to support a massive load above or had no fire. Only Building 7 had unfought fires and the massive load of 40 stories above the them.

Below is a photo of the bankers trust building.

As you can see, the building never caught fire so it was never in any danger of collapse. It also was constructed differently, with a web column design. The interior columns were not pushed out to the perimeter.

Note the WTC columns laid out as if there were a path to the building. There are no concrete slabs attached to columns. This is yet another example of pancaking. With the floors pancaking straight down, the perimeter walls were free to lean over in tall sections before breaking off and coming down. That's what gave them distance.

So we know the building should have been hit given the debris field above. But what of the damage to the building? Conspiracy sites say there were small fires. And what of Silverstein's comments in the PBS special? He used the term "Pull" to describe a decision made. Conspiracy theorist say "Pull" is a term used by demolition experts. This is one of those many half truths conspiracy theorist use to convince the ignorant. "Pull" is used when they "Pull" a building away from another with cables during demolition. However, was the fire more severe than conspiracy theorist let on and was Silverstein's quote taken out of context? The two are related and are explored below.

The above photo is very different than the photos you usually see on conspiracy sites.

Silverstein's Quote:

"I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander
-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business

Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:

"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."

He could be lying right? But here is the corroborating evidence...

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/
Banaciski_Richard.txt

Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire...

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/

Nigro_Daniel.txt

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC

/Cruthers.txt

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC

/Ryan_William.txt

"Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7?

Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn’t know exactly what it was,but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site.

Firehouse: How many companies?

Boyle: There were four engines and at least three trucks. So we’re heading east on Vesey, we couldn’t see much past Broadway. We couldn’t see Church Street. We couldn’t see what was down there. It was really smoky and dusty."

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...e/gz/boyle.html

This proves there was a big hole on the south side. It's in the middle of the building and goes up about 20 stories...

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?

Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. At that point in time, it seemed like a somewhat smaller event, but under any normal circumstances, that’s a major event, a 47-story building collapsing. It seemed like a firecracker after the other ones came down, but I mean that’s a big building, and when it came down, it was quite an event. But having gone through the other two, it didn’t seem so bad. But that’s what we were concerned about. We had said to the guys, we lost as many as 300 guys. We didn’t want to lose any more people that day. And when those numbers start to set in among everybody… My feeling early on was we weren’t going to find any survivors. You either made it out or you didn’t make it out. It was a cataclysmic event. The idea of somebody living in that thing to me would have been only short of a miracle. This thing became geographically sectored because of the collapse. I was at West and Liberty. I couldn’t go further north on West Street. And I couldn’t go further east on Liberty because of the collapse of the south tower, so physically we were boxed in.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/hayden.html

It mirrors what Silverstein said.

WTC Building 7 appears to have suffered significant damage at some point after the WTC Towers had collapsed, according to firefighters at the scene. Firefighter Butch Brandies tells other firefighters that nobody is to go into Building 7 because of creaking and noises coming out of there. [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

Battalion Chief John Norman later recalls, "At the edge of the south face you could see that it is very heavily damaged." [Firehouse Magazine, 5/02]

Heavy, thick smoke rises near 7 World Trade Center. Smoke is visible from the upper floors of the 47-story building. Firefighters using transits to determine whether there was any movement in the structure were surprised to discover that is was moving. The area was evacuated and the building collapsed later in the afternoon of Sept. 11.

http://www.firehouse.com/911/magazine/towers.html

And now for the best video evidence to date from our friends at 911myths...

http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Smoke.avi

That alone should end this debate. The fire dept didn't have orders from on high. So that leaves the fire dept lying to cover up a demolition for Bush or the firefighters made a good call.

More from another blogger…

RealityCheck

“(1) In your own quote we have a Fire Dept. COMMANDER saying: "....they were not sure they were going to be able to contain the fire......". How and why is everyone ignoring the fact that the COMMANDER, obviously based on his relevant/authoritative experience/knowledge, judges that the WTC7 fire is OUT OF CONTROL!

I ask any reasonable person to tell me WHAT POSSIBLE OPINION from ANY 'civilian' could have been persuasive enough to CHANGE THE COMMANDER'S MIND enough to continue with a 'lost cause'? [....the persistence with which 'lost cause' could only INEVITABLY have resulted in greater loss of life than if they "pulled back" NOW and leave it to burn out while concentrate on preventing its spread further afield, heh? ].

So, whatever Silverstein might have WANTED, in light of what the COMMANDER said, it is OBVIOUS to any reasonable person that Silverstein could have had little OTHER choice than to recognize and acquiesce/concur with the FIRE COMMANDER'S professional judgment Wouldn't you agree?

(2) As to the term "pull":

Given that the fire department is organized/regimented along semi-milaristic lines (evidence terms such as Battalion and Commander), would it seem unreasonable to find that OTHER traditional 'military' terms are used?......like withdraw[ or move out or PULL (back) etc. .......in such a structure/culture as in a FIRE DEPT. COMMAND STRUCTURE maneuvering/ordering about MANY 'troops' (firemen)? I for one would find it extraordinary if such an organization did NOT use such traditional and well understood/useful (and to the point) terms to ISSUE ORDERS WHICH COULD NOT BE MISUNDERSTOOD EVEN IN THE HEAT OF 'BATTLE' (remember the term "Battalion" which is part of their organizational/operational structure?).

RC.

As for Building 7 and the evidence for Controlled Demolition, lets review the evidence...

What we do have for sure.

1) Fireman saying there was "a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors." "I would say it was probably about a third of it".

2) A laymen officer the fireman was standing next to said, "that building doesn’t look straight." He then says "It didn’t look right".

3) They put a transit on it and afterward were "pretty sure she was going to collapse."

4) They "saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13".

5) Photographic evidence of a fire directly under the penthouse which collapsed first.

6) The penthouse fell first, followed by the rest of the building shortly after.

7) The collapse happened from the bottom.

8) Photographic evidence of large smoke plumes against the back of B7. Plumes of smoke so large you can't see the entire rear of the 47 story office building.

9) Silverstein is not a demolition expert and was talking to a fire fighter and not a demolition expert. Why would he use the word "Pull" to describe the demolition to a fire fighter?

10) Silverstein denies "Pull" means "Controlled demolition". He said it means "Pull" the teams out of the building.

11) Silverstein did not make the decision to "Pull". (Whatever that means) "they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse"

12) Another fire fighter used "Pull" to describe the decision made to get him out of the building.

What we don't have...

1) Clear view of the large hole

2) Number of columns and location of columns taken out by the tower impact

3) Clear view of all the fires seen on the south side

4) Any sign of an actual explosive.

Maybe none of these things by themselves mean anything but together it means there is no case. The person who said "Pull" and started this cascade later clarified. Fireman use the word "Pull" to describe getting out of a building and the person who made the order was not Silverstein according to the same first interview.

9/11 conspiracy sites are being dishonest. You have to ask yourself why?

They are interviewing this woman with Building 7 in the background because they knew well in advance the building was going to collapse. The reporter says “This is it” as if they are waiting for the collapse. Then the other reporter says “What we’ve been fearing all afternoon has finally happened.” Why did they fear a controlled demolition? If it was a secret demolition for money why did the media know about it ahead of time?

There is no doubt "Pull" means pull the fireman out.

Conspiracy sites like to bring up the 'Symmetric Collapse' of building 7 and that the building should have fallen over to the south. They show grainy, dark photos of debris piles which were taken well after 9/11 and a debris pile with a grayish, smoky image of building 7 in the background. They deceptively show the north side which was relatively free of damage. As if the Tower should have reached over to the other side of the building and damaged that side to.

Here is what the debris pile looked like just after 9/11

Eerily, the north face is on the debris pile as if a shroud were laid gently over the dead building. It fell over after the majority of the building fell. This indicates the south side of the building fell before the north. It's almost as if the buildings last words were "[This] did it!..".

And now comes the most important and telling fact in this photo. Note the west side (Right side in this photo) of the north face is pointing toward the east side (Left side of this photo) where the penthouse was. What caused this? It would not be unreasonable to expect the building to fall toward the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance in this case would be the hole in the back of the building and the hole left by the penthouse. Since the penthouse was on the east and the 20 story hole in the middle, that would make the east and middle the path of least resistance. The conspiracy sites agree with this theory but say it never happened. They say the fact that it didn't happen helps prove controlled demolition. But you see it happen here... What will they say now?

"But the building doesn't look like it fell over, it fell "In it's own foot print" you might ask. That's because it is impossible for a 47 story steel building to fall over like that. It's not a small steel reinforced concrete building like the ones shown as *Examples* of buildings which fell over. Building 7 is more like the towers, made up of many pieces put together. It's not so much as a solid block as those steel reinforced concrete buildings.

This evidence supports the NIST contention that the building collapse progressed from the penthouse out as columns weakened by the fires. The slow sinking of the penthouses, indicating the internal collapse of the building behind the visible north wall, took 8.2 seconds according to a NIST preliminary report. Seismograph trace of the collapse of WTC 7 indicates that parts of the building were hitting the ground for 18 seconds. This means the collapse took at least 18 seconds, of which only the last approximately 15 seconds are visible in videos: 8 seconds for the penthouses and 7 seconds for the north wall to come down.

In the following image the east penthouse falls...

Now the west penthouse falls...

To put it simply, the building DID fall over backward and to the south-east. Just not like a steel reinforced concrete building would. Another telling photo is this one taken closer to the event date.

Note just past building 7 is a small amount of debris on the white building behind it. That building is to the north east corner of building 7. Note about 1/3rd of the east side of the building falling to the north in the photo below.

This suggests the building was split by the penthouse collapses most of the way down. One section went to the south-east while a smaller section went to the north. It wasn't that symmetrical.

Below are snapshots from a video taken from the northeast of Building 7 just as it collapses. Note that it has just begun to collapse and it is already tilting to the south.

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f1.jpg

Half way through and it's still tilted to the south. Note the west side of the building has come away from the west face around what used to be the 43rd floor. Light can be seen through the east face windows.

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f2.jpg

Note the angle to the south has increased and so has the space between the west face and the rest of the building. The west face later lays on the Verizon building to the west. While it looks like it's about to hit the ground, it's still almost as high as the white building to the right. That makes it about 20 stories.

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7f3.jpg

If the majority of the building fell to the south-east based on the resulting debris locations, as conspiracy theorist point out, it is evidence for a normal collapse by fire. I think they're right.

The perpetually perplexed will show you a photo of the Oklahoma City Federal Building and say "Gee, that didn't fall. If that didn't fall with more visible damage why should the WTC 7 fall?".

http://www.debunking911.com/okc.jpg

In some ones need to question authority and seem smarter than the rest they may forget an important fact. The OKC Federal building wasn't constructed the same or had it's lower floors on fire for 6 hours. We can see clear as day that the building was not a tube in a tube design. We can see it's lower floors weren't on fire. We can see the columns are covered in concrete. All from the same photo they use to show us how incredibly intelligent they are.

Thanks to ScottS and David B. Benson for their contributions.

Here is your proof.

Are you trying to say the official theory, not involving explosives is credible?

I thought you had faced up to the reality that 9/11 was an inside job...

Are you trying to say the official theory, not involving explosives is credible?

I thought you had faced up to the reality that 9/11 was an inside job...

We must face what they say instead of created excuses and fallacies.

Because we want them to do the same.

We're not battling these people, we're sharing and collaborating.

We must face what they say instead of created excuses and fallacies.

Because we want them to do the same.

We're not battling these people, we're sharing and collaborating.

We must face up to their deception and lies.

What exactly do you think you are sharing with these people?

Promoting the official conspiracy theory of 9/11?

so R_M, ur saying that the government basically killed all those ppl by detonating it? and then to cover it up, they lied that the building collapsed from the Airplanes' impact?

this is basically what i read, and believe 99.9% (i did not write this)...

i think the government played a HUGE part in the WTC attack, and that it was indeed planned...

Ok, this is to all of the people who still believe 9/11 was the work of 19 Arabic Hijackers and an operation entirely masterminded by Osama Bin Laden, mainly because he hates our freedom’s and disagrees with American Liberalism. Despite all of their hard work, the United States Government simply could not see the attack coming.

When one considers all of the hardcore facts, there is no way this excuse holds even a grain of truth in it. The official story is impossible and simply does not stand up to scrutiny. Even more laughable is the excuse given by government officials that it was simply a "failure of intelligence" and the attack could not be averted. Politicians should not even form their mouths to even use an incompetence excuse. Warnings were received by the US by at least 18 other countries, and agents in the CIA, and the FBI were warned. The FAA got warnings too. In fact,

Prior Knowledge:

CIA had high-jacker details
Taliban warned the US of huge attack
FBI warned of plot to high-jack planes in 1995
FBI warned of Suspicious flight student last yearCIA ignorned warnings of Al-Queda
US knew of Suicide highjack threat in 1995
The airlift of evil
Threat of US attacks passed Taliban weeks before the attacks
US clamps secrecy on attacks before 911
It seems that there were so many warnings, that
"The information provided by European intelligence services prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for either the CIA or FBI to assert a defence of incompetence." Micheal Meacher, Tony Blairs former environmental advisor until 2003. London Guardian

In addition to these Government officials and other people received individuals warnings as well. Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco was warned a full eight hours before the attack not to fly on 911, author Salmon Rushdie was publicly banned from flying before 911, and John Ashcroft former Attorney General stopped flying commercially six months before 911. Even some people working inside of the towers got instant messages, telling them to evacuate the WTC.

We must ask ourselves, where did all this prior knowledge come from, and why was it all ignored? Is it possible for that this much information of this magnitude of importance to get tangled up in a beaurecratic web of telephone lines? The answer is NO, people in side of the Trade Towers got INSTANT MESSAGES telling them the buildings were going to be destroyed two hours before it happened. You’re going to tell me someone can get an INSTANT MESSAGE to someone inside the World Trade Center two hours before the attack, but no one can get the message to the President of the United States? Impossible, this is the equivalent to saying people who work in the WTC has access to better intelligence than the president does. Someone calls up calls Mayor Willie Brown eight hours before the attack, and tells him not to fly, BUT THEY CAN'T CONTACT THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLERS AND WARN THEM AHEAD OF TIME?!??!

Sources:

Odigo Says Workers Were Warned of the Attack
San Francisco Chronicle - Mayor Willie Brown got Low-Key Warning about Air Travel
The Truth Seeker-Condi Lisa Rice Warned Willie Brown and Told him not to fly on 911
CBS News - Ashcroft Flying High
In addition there are over 600 smoking gun holes and unanswered questions in the official story of 911; I'm only going to scratch the surface, w/ some of the main ones.

First thing is the NORAD stand down order.

"The first hijacking was suspected at not later than 8.20am, and the last hijacked aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania at 10.06 am. Not a single fighter plane was scrambled to investigate from the US Andrews air force base, just 10 miles from Washington DC, until after the third plane had hit the Pentagon at 9.38 am. Why not? There were standard FAA intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft before 9/11. Between September 2000 and June 2001 the US military launched fighter aircraft on 67 occasions to chase suspicious aircraft" (AP, August 13 2002)
guardian, once again

NORAD completely stood down, this is a clear violation of FAA flight regulations, and NORAD could have probably stopped the attack, at least partially. The morning of 911 NORAD was training in a war game of flying hijacked aircrafts into buildings ON the Morning of 911. On the Morning of 911??!?! Yep, the drill stopped just 50 minutes before the Hi-Jacking began. No wonder there was no Military Response, NORAD was told that the planes being Hijacked were just part of a drill. That's why they stood down.

What are the chances of this happening? It's just a coincidence that they were running a war-game drill, mirroring the same monumental event to be documented in history books for centuries? Of course it’s possible, but very unlikely.

This is so weird to have happened, and even weirder is the fact that this type of a war-game is going on the morning of 911. This type of event would be similar to seeing Oswald and the CIA training how to kill Kennedy in Dealy Plaza an hour before it happened.

Yahoo News - Agency planned exercise on Sept. 11 built around a plane crashing into a building
USA Today - NORAD has drills to use jets as weapons
Associated Press - Exercise built around crashing planes into buildings
In addition, the list of the 19 hijackers and their picture identification was assembled and aired just hours after the attack. How do we jump to the accusations that 19 suspects are guilty of 3,000 American murders when most, if not all of the evidence, is twisted metal and degenerated ashes that used to be people? Actually by the time the hijackers had their mug shots aired on TV, all of the crime scenes had been destroyed. Buildings one and two collapsed, as well as the mysterious building seven collapsing on its own, the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrated, and flight 93 was likely shot down, hours later we miraculously post all of their mug shots on the news? Damn, we must be good.

So how exactly did the United States leap to their allegations of guilt?

A travel bag belonging to one of the 911 hijackers was found at the airport after the attacks, absolutely ruling beyond any doubt, that this was the work of Al-Queda.

Question: Why would a hijacker, planning to commit suicide, even BRING A BAG? Let alone pack it w/ incriminating evidence sure to unleash a fire storm of military hell on all of his fellow Mid Eastern people? The bag contained enough evidences to precisely tie the perpetrators to the Taliban and Al-Queda justifies the assault in Afghanistan.
Answer: this is MANUFACTURED EVIDENCE
Now BBC has began running stories that many of these men have shown up as being still alive. The 911 Hijackers steal our planes to suicide attack us because were apparently not in sync with what the Qu'ran says, and then they show up still being alive. So that means that at least five of the men on the hijackers list cannot be the same men who were on the plane. But the government has stuck to their official story on this, and no one in the mainstream media has ever brought this up, or challenged them on it. Many of the hijackers are now appearing on television in their countries and professing their innocence. A lot of information like this has been circulating around other parts of the world, and it is likely part of the reason why America's image has dropped from negative to terrible. Most people in other countries know this is going on, but Americans are sleeping.
The Truth is unleashed in other parts of the world but it’s concealed from American eyes as a way to demonize Americans to the rest of the world, while American media demonizes the rest of the world (particularly Arabs) to America, this is a way of polarizing both side to inspire conflict on both sides.

Sources:


High JAck Suspects alive and well
High Jack Suspects Alive in Morroco
Bombs in the Towers
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___ This next part is important, because it's hardcore visual evidence of government involvement in 9/11 and is nearly impossible to deny.

Building seven, first of all, was the third building to collapse within the World Trade Center Complex. According to the government’s official story, building seven was destroyed from fire, along with buildings one and two.

Videos Show Building 7's 6.5 second symmetrical collapse

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First of all it’s important to say that fire has never once brought a steel structure down. Out of 100 uncontrolled fires in the last 50 years NEVER has fire collapsed a steel building, only earthquakes and explosives have been able to flatten these modern structures.

So, why is building seven so significant? It’s important because building seven collapsed without being struck by an airplane or anything else, almost as if it were the wind that knocked it over.

Several videos have been salvaged which show building seven's collapse and shocking evidence has surfaced from scrutiny.

CBS Broadcast of Buildinding Seven's fall - Dan Rather admits it looks like Explosives
Building Seven's Collapase from a mile away
Building Seven's Colapse from 1000 feet away, this is very obvious

You see, building seven DECENTEGRATED INTO RUBBLE in a vertical symmetrical fashion in 6.5 seconds. If building seven was taken down by an aircraft impact (even though it was not) it would have thrown back horizontally, transferring the energy away from the airplane impacts. And if it was fire, even though the flames would have had to have burnt exponentially hotter for a much longer time, we would have seen the structure reduced into liquid metal, and the streets would be a river of flame. But this building simply fell straight to the ground and crumbled.

I need to explain something about controlled demolition. First of all, when buildings are demolished the explosives are placed in the central column, so the structure falls inwards and does not damage other surrounding buildings. So they only way the building can fall like this or fall period is through the use of explosives.

THE FEMA REPORT ON WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 COLLAPSE IS A TOTAL JOKE.

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“Each of the following videos shows the entire visible portion of the building falling with a vertical precision otherwise seen only in controlled demolition. Moreover, they show that the collapse took only about 6.5 seconds from start to finish. That rate of fall is within a second of the time it would take an object to fall from the building's roof with no air resistance”

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BUT, building seven is even more important because the official story of building seven collapse is because it was damaged from fire, HOWEVER, Larry Silverstine the owner of buildings one, two, and seven, got on television on America Rebuilds on PBS, and slipped up, ADMITTING, THAT HE BLEW UP BUILDING SEVEN, He Said "WE PULLED THE BUILDING!" Here's the video from the PBS documentary.

http://infowars.com/...11/wtc7_pbs.WMV

Here's another clip where a demolitions expert describes "PULL IT" As a controlled demolition.



NOW, it's extremely important to mention that rigging buildings with explosives is a tiresome and very time consuming process, and to properly plant explosives in mathematically harmonious fashion to create a smooth symmetrical drop. Actually it would take weeks to prepare for the demolition. So not only does Larry Silverstone, the owner of the complex admit to blowing up building seven, But building seven COULD NOT have been demolished on such short notice. Weeks of demolitions planning does not jive well with Osama's surprise attack. In fact it's impossible.

Another particularly important part of this is to note that Towers one, two, and seven have all of the 10 characteristics of a controlled demolition, a building collapsing from fire and plane impact damage having one of the characteristics of controlled demolition is astronomically rare, the chances of this damage having all 10 characteristics of a controlled demolition and not being a controlled demolition is next to nil. These characteristics are.

1. Each collapse occurred at virtually free fall speed;
2. Each building collapsed straight down, for the most part onto its own footprint;
3. Virtually all the concrete was turned into very fine dust;
4. In the case of the Twin Towers, the dust was blown out horizontally for 200 feet or more;
5. The collapses were total, leaving no steel columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air;
6. Videos of the collapses reveal "demolition waves", meaning "confluent rows of small explosions";
7. Most of the steel beams and columns came down in sections that were no more than 30 feet long;
8. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings;
9. Each collapse was associated with detectable seismic vibrations (suggestive of underground explosions);
10.Each collapse produced molten steel (which would be produced by explosives), resulting in "hot spots" that remained for months.?

Source:

Professor David Ray Griffin
http://www.rbnlive.c...ntia_trial.html

Good lookin to Dem Bruce Lee Stylez, and his MIGHTY nine eleven thread right here

Historical Comparison

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----The Burning of the Reichstag
In 1933 Adolph Hitler wanted to seize dictatorial powers and turn Germany into a police state. So he set the massive governmental building on fire that is known as the Reichstag (German Parliament) the blazing infernos sent the population into a state of petrified fear. Adolph Hitler and his party won by a landslide in the election just weeks later and later on was able to merge the Chancellor’s powers with that of the Presidents, and this is the origin of where his dictatorial power came from. Hitler also blamed the terrorist attack on the communists, and received a pretext, or a reason, to attack them.
The real Pretext

Hitler’s conspiratorial tactic of burning the Reichstag to receive dictatorial power, and a pretext to attack his enemies is a method that is known as the Hegelian Dialectic, which is translated simply as problem, reaction, solution. The Hegelian Dialectic is a tactic that was developed by the 19th century German philosopher George Wilhelm Fredric Hegel. The way this works is, you create a crisis, the population is thrown into fear, and then you, the creator of the crisis, step in with a pre-organized solution, and pose as the savior. As soon as 911 occurred, literally while the smoke was still streaming from the building, politicians began targeting us with Doublethink approaches to get us to give up our freedom for security.

I don't want to digress too much, but this is important.

Doublethink is the practice of misrepresenting something bad as something good, such as pushing identity theft propaganda in order to get the people wanting a national ID card. This was the phrase coined in George Orwell's book 1984, which psychologically persuaded the population to relinquish there freedom unto big brother and simultaneously be happy about it. We see doublethink utilized daily by politicians.

The Hegelian Dialectic fused with the double think approach has given ruthless men an unbelievably effective tactic of power consolidation. But this time it's bigger,

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PNAC(Project For a New American Centeury

The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was founded by Dick Chenney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Lewis Libby and others in 2000. This is a pro-globalization neo-con think tank. On his website Dick Cheney lays out a Blueprint for America to invade many of it's neighbors and construct a "global command and control system" Cheney sites Syria, Libya, and North Korea as terrorist regimes, and uses their existence to justify invasions and restructuring there powers under a Pax America. It's strange, earlier in the year; Rumsfeld was selling Nuclear Reactors to North Korea. Now he's sitting in meetings at PNAC calling them a dangerous regime. HaHa, who made them more dangerous, Mr. Rumsfeld?
This document also mentions that public support would be very difficult to rally for these upcoming wars, and that a "Pearl Harbor Like Attack" would be very helpful. Now this is a public document, saying we need helpful Pearl Harbor attacks, that's motive, and practically admittance.

Sources:

PNAC offical site read the documents.
Meacher talks about PNAC too
Guardian UK - The Two Faces of Rumseld

Not only this, but
"the US and the UK, are running dangerously low on hydrocarbon energy supplies. And by 2010 the Muslim world will control as much as 60% of the worlds oil production, and 95% of the remaining exportable oil. "

Protecting oil supplies in a crisis
Taliban to Texas for Oil Talks
Bottom of the Barrel, the world is runnin out of oil, why do Politicans refuse to talk about it?
Threats of US to strike Taliban weeks before the attacks
Cui Bono(Who Benefits?)

Three Corporations involved in the war on terror/The World effort. They are the
Carlyle Group, Unocal, and Halliburton,

Carlyle group: Bush and the Bin Laden family are BOTH investors in this company, that is headed almost exclusively by former government officials. They developed missile targeting systems, and have exponentially increased their profits since 911.
Unocal: Bush just hired the former CEO, I believe to his administration, others inside the camp are investors as well. This is the company building the pipeline through Afghanistan, to route the oil out, they are poised to make a killing off of oil deals directly resulting from 911 after math.

Halliburton: I don't even half to say it. Well incase I do, Halliburton is a construction company raking in billions of dollars from rebuilding the spots on the map, after America destroys them.

And to top all that off,

"No serious attempt has ever been made to catch Bin Laden. In late September and early October 2001, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamist parties negotiated Bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for 9/11. However, a US official said, significantly, that "casting our objectives too narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if by some lucky chance Mr. Bin Laden was captured". The US chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that "the goal has never been to get Bin Laden" (AP, April 5 2002). The whistle blowing FBI agent Robert Wright told ABC News (December 19 2002) that FBI headquarters wanted no arrests. And in November 2001 the US air force complained it had had al-Qaida and Taliban leaders in its sights as many as 10 times over the previous six weeks, but had been unable to attack because they did not receive permission quickly enough (Time Magazine, May 13 2002). None of this assembled evidence, all of which comes from sources already in the public domain, is compatible with the idea of a real, determined war on terrorism"
Micheal Meacher

The War on terror is not the war on terror, it's putting the PNAC agenda into action.

Not only have they blatantly avoided chances to catch Bin Laden, but many reporters have written articles about top government officials holding the investigation in the dark, delaying them, and in some cases even protecting the terrorists. I'd post the actual document but I'm out of picture slots so you have to settle for the article, or research the rest yourself.

Bush restricts 911 probesTop Taladan leader freed by US
911 study hindered
Bush trying to hide 911 information
911 documents to sensitive for realse
Bush discourages 911 investagations
Times of India - Bush took FBI agents off the Trail of Bin Ladens
Guardian UK - Agent Blasts FBI over 11 Sept 'cover up'
Goes on and on
ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER, THE CARD GAME

Not only has PNAC directly stated that they want "helpful Pearl Harbor Attacks" in their official documents, but a card game entitled Illuminati New World Order, surfaced in 1995, which described the events of 911 with a shocking level of accuracy. The game INWO contained cards that said the words "Terrorist Nuke" at the top with an illustration of the Twin Towers being destroyed clearly shows tower one being demolished first.

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-This amazingly means, that this card predicted almost exactly what happened in New York City, six years before the actual event. It also identifies the villains as "Terrorist" at the top, which was not a term used nearly as much before 911, I don't know about the nuke part, although explosives were definitely in use on September 11th.

-The explosion on the card is very close to the actual planes entry point.

-Another interesting thing to note, is the illuminati pyramid to the left of tower two.

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This card is chilling. We know that the plane or the missile or whatever hit the pentagon, pierce through several walls puncturing holes through several of the steel reinforced concrete walls at the Pentagon, and actually exploded somewhere in the middle, Although it took out a wing, the rest of the pentagon was unscathed.

Here is a flash of the Pentagon which accurately shows the damage very similar to this card.

http://www.freedomun...ntagon.php#Main

Funny how they got both of these elements of the attacks right and didn't make any mistakes six years before the attack, perhaps someone had advanced knowledge of it.

On March 1st 1990 the Secret Service and Austin Police raided Steve Jackson, the maker of the games, office and confiscated four of his computers. Steve Jackson games fought back in court, but nearly suffered bankruptcy in the process. The charges were so bogus on the affavid that the judge awarded $50,000 as well as attorneys fees to SJG. It's strange the secret service would bother the manufacture of a role playing game, perhaps it was to stop them from releasing Illuminati New World Order. This is definitely not the strongest piece of evidence in this expose, but it does show prior knowledge, and is quite interesting.

Here is the website of the game maker.
http://www.sjgames.com/inwo/

And props to the Cutting Edge for bringing this to my attention, most of what I have articulated is paraphrased from their article on INWO. Although theirs gets a bit too weird for me, here is the original article and props to them once again.
http://www.cuttinged.../news/n1753.cfm

The really scary thing is,
Home Land security = Police State Mechanism

New Laws in the Works, are...

Patriot Act: Old school now, Police and government officials do not need warrants to enter homes now, and can seize anything in your house, and not tell you they were there for 60 days. Also ambiguous language could allow for secret juryless trials and even executions for supposed "Terrorists". The definition of a terrorist as shown in the Patriot Act is one who commits "Any act that endangers human life, IN VIOLATION WITH ANY FEDERAL OR STATE LAW" So Jay walkers and pot dealers are terroist too. The Patriot Act has been used on many "domestic terrorists" for crimes such as being a gang member to writing a story here are some of the many examples, of new laws designateing all American citizens as enemeis of the state.
Pot dealears are terrorists now.
http://seattletimes....uggling29m.html
http://stopthedrugwa...349/creep.shtml
http://vancouver.cbc...patriot20040805
http://talkleft.com/...ves/007442.html

People who write storries about Zombies, are terrorists too,
http://www.lex18.com...14&nav=EQlpWjof
http://www.paxtonlan...5/03/002907.php
http://minorkey.devi...ournal/4729752/
Gang members are terrorists too
http://www.newstarget.com/003554.html
http://www.terrorana...ory/107777.html
http://www.mydd.com/...12/30/23170/828

Who else?
People who own Toy Stores are being visited by Home Land Security, why would they do that?
http://abcnews.go.co...Story?id=206591
http://www.stupidsec...238&mode=thread
http://www.stupidsec...238&mode=thread

Photographers have been arrested under the Patriot Act
http://grep.law.harv...247&mode=thread

FBI says Patriot Act used in Vegas strip club corruption probe
http://www.reviewjou...s/22521283.html
http://www.signonsan...ptionprobe.html
http://www.lasvegass.../515818511.html
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540572/
http://news.neilroge...2003111407.html
Anti-terror laws increasingly used against common criminals
http://www.sfgate.co...1259EDT0480.DTL

Shopkeeper deported from South Carolina under PATRIOT Act killed in Pakistan
http://www.unknownne...030929dead.html

And there's even more examples of this here, I don't feel the need to post
http://www.prisonpla...4patriotact.htm
National ID cards, are also on the agenda which contain name, address the usual things, but also a finger and a retinal print, also rumors are circulating about a possible tracking chip inside of them. Homeland security had a fetish w/ RFID technology, and may use it to track us all w/ it through are cards.

We have the National all Prescriptions reporting act, which makes all of your medical drug information accessible by Federal agencies, all of them in fact since their all allowed sharing information now.

And the possible enactment of mandatory psychological testing for children and prescribing drugs without the parents consent.
There are also talks of extending the program to the entire population. (Note: The Forced psychological testing bill has already been passed, search “new freedom initiative” for more info)

AND the mother of them all of course, the Patriot Act II, while the first Patriot Act is just a destruction first, third, fourth and fifth amendments, Patriot Act II is a carbon copy of the powers that Hitler and Julius Caesar gave themselves
Patriot Act II creates an expanded definition for domestic terrorism, And it allows any terrorism act to result in the death penalty, allows federal access to your bank, educational, and financial records, and makes conspiracy to commit terror a crime with out endangering any life what so ever. And amazingly makes information gathering illegal, in fact this post right here would go under the heading of "Info Terrorism"

Patriot act II is enormously unpopular, and received massive amounts of bad press, so it's being passed in smaller increments, 10% of it has already been passed as HR2417, which allows for the pulling of all Financial and Medical transcripts.

"Strengthening Patriot Act I is code for passing Patriot Act 2."
There trying to do this now.

Prominent 911 whistle blowers

One might wonder, if all of this evidence which literally Swiss chesses the official story being in existence, why has there not been more of an outcry about it? Well, there has, famous people all over the world have been questioning and exposing the 911 cover-up.

Micheal Meacher MP, former environmental advisor in the British Government - This War on Terrorism is Bogus
former UK Government Minister speaks out about the standdown of NORAD on September 11th, PNAC and the pre-planned wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.guardian....1036571,00.html
http://www.prisonpla...0204meacher.htm

Andre Van Buelow
Von Buelow is the former German Defense Minister and Minister of Technology. Von Buelow went public to say the US government carried out 9/11. His book is one of the bestsellers across Europe.
http://www.prisonpla...4vonbuelow.html
http://www.prisonpla...4vonbuelow.html

Robert Wright, FBI special Agent,
http://www.prisonpla...error_probe.htm

Cynthia Mckinney (Representative D-GA) Grills Rumsfeld on wargames going on the morning of 9/11, he does not deny
http://www.infowars....ls_rumsfeld.htm

Morgan Reynolds, (former chief economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term) says 911 Offical story is a fruad
http://washingtontim...02755-6408r.htm
http://www.lewrockwe.../reynolds7.html
http://worldnetdaily...RTICLE_ID=44787
AND, Jimmy Walters the billionaire activist has gone so far as to, run commericals on televission, showing the evidence behinde building seven, and has also offered a $100,000 reward to any enginner who can proove that the towers fell the way they were said to have fallen in the offical story.

http://inn.globalfre...hp?storyid=1013
September 11 conspiracy theorist offers prize - Reuters
Summary:
911 was such a cataclysmic event, it galvanized both the idiots and the intellectuals of America into a flag waving frenzy for nearly five years. 911 has become a never ending excuse to fight any war over seas, and implement any authoritarian rule domestically. Politicians were so quick to exploit this event, jumping into there tanks and battle suits while rushing 1000 page bills through the Senate and House. One has to wonder, why the knee jerk reaction of this attack was to shift into throwing a doublethink deception at the people, telling them to give up freedom for liberty before the smoke had yet to even clear from the air.

Giving up freedom for Liberty is a False Paradigm. No Liberty = Tyranny.

The freedom for security trade off is a sham, because a population enslaved to their government is not safe, it’s is doubly unsafe, and incapable of defending itself from any outside threat. And even if we had an ethically loving government, (which I don’t believe we do) we’re paving the way for tyranny if an evil leader ever got into power. Most politicians and leaders know this, the fact that they instantaneously jumped into this deceptive and seemingly well planned out strategy is suspicious.

As the Roman judges used to say when a crime was committed, “key bono?”, or who benefits? The extremely powerful globalists who masterminded this attack want to put America in a permanent state of emergency to place authoritarian our nation, and so we will allow the invasions of uncontrolled Arab states, (Perhaps others too) to create a global climate in which people will beg them for a one world government. A government ruled by them. It’s Order out of chaos.

I've developed quite a case here, and I think my arguments are supported extremely well, even without all of my information on the towers; this is very strong evidence that we are being lied too, almost on a daily basis. Most of this literally proves the official story is a fraud and there's a lot of things I chose not to talk about, like 100s of Al-Queda and Taliban being flown out after 911, Insider trading right before 911, or Bush pulling FBI agents off of the Trail of the Bin Laden right before 911 (Edit: I did touch on that) and signing documents to protect them. However I've come to the conclusion that in this instance, the problem is there is actually TOO MUCH evidence here, so I won't even bother with the links for my last claims.

If you think I've made a compelling case, than I urge you learn more about this, because if I'm even remotely correct, and this New World Order a.k.a. the "Global Union" is created, by the same creatures who carried out this attack, I don't think your going to want to live under the tyranny grids they've constructed for you. I'm not charging the government with carrying this out, but these Rogue elements with tentacles into our government, who live in families who are worth five times as much as our countries annual budget. If you look more into this, I know you'll see that what I'm saying is true, this is what has happened with me. So please spread this thread around as much as you can, watch some of these movies I post at the bottom, PLEASE look into this more. I know when you find out what I'm saying is real; you'll fight it with even more compassion.

In the past only small pockets of people have had information on this subject, which served to cloak events in a protective secrecy. But lately a plethora of new information has been consolidated, creating an incredibly chaotic environment for the globalist where the risk of mass exposure is becoming very real. So once you learn, please spread this information on to others.

This is an information war, against elites with 90% of the wealth trying to control the political and financial systems to control mankind, and doing it for there own selfish desires. And information of this type is so much more powerful than any gun or grenade or tank or anything. Every single word we spew of resistance is a bullet, discharged from a chamber and sent into the heart of the New World Order Demon, and it will take a lot to kill it, but humanity will prevail.

911 Documentaries
Martial Law: 911 Rise of the Police State (The best damn 911 movie ever made)
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Windows Media Player:
Broadband:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmv

Dial up:

http://www.revradio....ovies/ml56k.wmv

Stream:

Broadband:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmx

Dial up:

http://www.revradio....ovies/ml56k.wmx

911- The Road To Tyranny

Paineful Deceptions
Painful Deceptions DVD Part 1 (pentagon)
Painful Deceptions DVD Part 2 (building 7 and the two towers)
Painful Deceptions DVD Part 3 (media propaganda)

The Masters of terror
2:00:09
http://thewebfairy.c...ror_128KBps.wmv

911 Truth and Lies 4 parts

http://www.illuminat...ndLiesPart1.wmv
http://www.illuminat...ndLiesPart2.wmv
http://www.illuminat...ndLiesPart3.wmv
http://www.illuminat...ndLiesPart4.wmv

Michael Parenti-Terrorism, Globalism and Conspiracy
http://www.workingtv...a5/parenti1.wmv
http://www.workingtv...a5/parenti2.wmv
http://www.workingtv...a5/parenti3.wmv
http://www.workingtv...a5/parenti4.wmv
http://www.workingtv...a5/parenti5.wmv

Illuminazi 9-11
http://www.nwowatche.../illuminazi.wmv

The Microchip
http://www.nwowatche...e Microchip.wmv

Free ebooks

The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O. (Illuminati, Templars, Freemasons, etc.).pdf
Order Out of Chaos - Paul Joseph Watson
A Chronological History of the New World Order - Denis Cuddy
Conspiracy ebook - The New World Order - Milton William Cooper
Global Tyranny Step by Step - By WIlliam F. Jasper

^^^^^


THAT is what i was looking for

Rep +


This is a link to another thread and another wonderful movie:

http://forum.grassci...ighlight=nation

Do me a favor and bump that thread too, please. I think it's important for everybody to see it.

You wouldn't believe how unknown the term 'globalism' is.

rastaman,

i'm really confused. obviously, you like myself, believe 9/11 was an inside job, a false flag operation if you will.

so why did you make a post designed to debunk the conspiracy theories and support the government's version of the story?

after reading the post, i will concede that either scenario (the government's story or the conspiracy theory) sounds plausible.

so tell me then, what aspects of the government's account outlined in your previous post are inconsistent with the facts or at least inconsistent with the conspiracy theories.

I just think it's important to look at what EVERYBODY has to say. We want to be taken seriously, so we have to take them seriously.

In my mind, I know what happened. I know exactly who perpetrated it to what end, in the short term and long term.

When it comes down to it, us the people are the ones with the power and we're letting this devide us more than they possibly can.

i see, thanks for clearing that up.

i'm sure you heard about alex jones issuing the red alert for a terrorist attack on his radio show not to long ago where he specfied that bone shattering attacks would occur in or before October (a month before the November elections).

i watched the documentary you posted (One Nation Under Seige; good find btw, found it in another thread) as well as the others (loose change, rise of the police state, in plane sight, etc) and i'm convinced that at least something is going on mainstream america is unaware of.

however, this seems to be an agenda backed almost exclusively by conservative republicans. there is much speculation that democrats will win back both the house and senate in the upcomming elections as well the presidential election. that will give the "good guys" absolute control over the government just as the republicans have now.

if democrats should win back the government, do you think this movement to enslave america through ffo's and fear would stop?
i think it would, which is exactly why the republicans will do anything to prevent the democrats from gaining power.
that's why there is such a big push for diebold voting machines. there's no paper trail and no accountability. it has been proven that bush would not have won in 2000 if the votes had been counted correctly and voters (who would have most likely voted for gore) were not disinfranchised and stripped of their right to vote. it was proven bush would not have won in 2004 if the votes had been counted accurrately. i don't know all the specifics behind what happened in ohio (the battleground state that could have swayed the election either way) but there were some districts that counted more votes for bush than there were people regsitered to vote in the respective district.

so what we really have to focus on now is voting tampering/fraud because that's how they're going to keep their cronies in office who will continue to move closer to a totalitarian fascist police state.

update:
here is the rolling stone article made by bobby kennedy pointing out the fraud in the 04 election. some pretty enraging shit if you ask me:
http://www.rollingst...election_stolen
i posted the link instead of the text; it was rather long but definitely worth reading

I disagree.

The republicans and the democrats are working for the same end. The democrats scare me even more. They're talking about getting serious about "homeland security" aka the police state and the gustapo.

This is just a facade to make those who dissent feel like real change is being made, whilst the same shadow government is in control. Its the illusion of control, the illusion that change can be made. Putting the moderate dissent in this nation to rest.

This goes far beyond the simple conservative vs. liberal agenda. We don't even live in a true democracy anymore, we've been living in a fascist (somewhat benign) corporatley sponsored plutocracy since the mid-80's and the facts are all in the main stream media for you to see, but everybody just can help turning back to the saftey of routine and expectability.

One-world government is just around the corner. The USID cards will be mandetory by 2008, Big Brother is emerging strongly in the UK and soon you'll be having to line up at your doctors office to get your new shiney RFID chip implanted under your skin.

Let me remind you ALL of those above issues were consider conspiracy just serveral years ago and now they are REALITY.

Keep in mind that in the past historical incidences of a republic being tricked into accepting a police state and a fascist government due to flase-flag operations (Nero burning Rome and blaming christians, Hitler burning the Reichstag and blaming polish jews), it has required an entire destruction before things could return to 'normal'.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

you know what? neg rep.

That isnt even a sound argument of any kind.

All if illustrates is willful ignorance and a vast misunderstanding of the IMC

i agree.
everytime the 9/11 conspiracy theories are mentioned on the news, it is in an effort to discredit the theories, every single god damned time.
they never really offer any credible evidence to back up their position. especially that glen beck asshole on cnn. he just says were all a bunch of paranoid freaks.
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER. 2+2=4 dumbass

As Bruce Ackerman, professor of law at Yale and author of Before the Next Attack: Preserving Civil Liberties in an Age of Terrorism, puts it:
"Buried in the complex Senate compromise on detainee treatment is a real shocker, reaching far beyond the legal struggles about foreign terrorist suspects in the Guantanamo Bay fortress. The compromise legislation, which is racing toward the White House, authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."

As for the drill being carried out by NORAD and others on the day of 9/11, on the day of the London bombings of 7/7, the powers that be were also running a simulation of an attack on on the London Underground. At the same stations as the real bombs, at the same times.

I also have to ask if anyone has heard any more about the news that came out on the very morning of 9/11 before the WTC bombings, that the White House admitted that over $2, 000, 000, 000, 000 (that's Trillion) dollars in funding had disappeared and could not be accounted for?

MelT

http://www.dod.gov/speeches/2001/s20010716-secdef2.html

SEC. RUMSFELD: "Mr. Congressman, thank you very much. Your question is, of course, right at the heart of an enormously important issue for the Department of Defense. We have a panel in the Quadrennial Defense Review on this subject. We have met with it twice in the last two weeks. We're obviously going to have to meet with it again. It is a big, broad, complicated subject.

"As you know, the Department of Defense really is not in charge of its civilian workforce, in a certain sense. It's the OPM, or Office of Personnel management, I guess. There are all kinds of long- standing rules and regulations about what you can do and what you can't do. I know Dr. Zakheim's been trying to hire CPAs because the financial systems of the department are so snarled up that we can't account for some $2.6 trillion in transactions that exist, if that's believable. And yet we're told that we can't hire CPAs to help untangle it in many respects."

MelT

=

"This is professional work, without any doubt."

I guess he must just have been smoking too much that day.

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it was one big demo, its messed up.