[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

As I said, you have every right to believe that these things are too foolish to believe in, but you're up against a world of people who don't think like that. Perhaps if you keep spreading the logic gospel you'll win some converts of these. I think once you realize that the world can work with just a little open-mindedness and a little bit of willingness to forgo the strict bounds of logic, you will find that everyone's beliefs are just as acceptable. If you do not wish to see this perception, no one will make you. It's all about you.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Some religious doctrine you posed there. Good comparison. Not a stretch based on your negatively-biased opinion at all.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

So, you're going to use this hypothetical story you came up with and suggest that it has the authority of the myth of a religion of faith? Impressive indeed. You've just about converted me already, especially since you cleared away my delusional thinking.

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him bringing me presents every Christmas?

Or perhaps there is. To say there's only one right way of seeing things is indeed closed-minded. Ask around if you disagree.

Our minds are not perfect things that only think up things that are proper and true.

I assume you'll be the first to admit that you could be delusional yourself.

Mental institutions are filled with people who believe they are Napoleon. What the "people of faith" are essential saying is, if they believe it, it is true. Since that is the case, I believe you owe me 2 million dollars, I do accept all major credit cards... Oh, yeah, but that matter of faith is obviously untrue, right?

Who's saying that if they believe it, it's true, other than you about your belief that faith is essentially worthless? I hope you'll honestly consider here whether you might be being just a little bit hypocritical...

I do believe there is someone on this board by the name of Liquidswords, but that person is not me. Is it simply a misunderstanding (as in, misreading my nick) or a subtle form of mockery?

I'm sorry. I really mistyped it. I've seen you on the boards for a long time, and I'm sorry I didn't even address you correctly. Forgive me?

Touche, it is not meaningless. It is frightening. People make decisions that effect me (and everyone else) in this world based upon nothing more than a personal flight of fancy.

Yeah, even the faithful still have non-faithfuls in their world. Luckily you don't affect them, too, right?

The scientific method has done the best job it can (key words right there) of removing personal perception from the equation. It is not my personal perception that repeatable experiments are repeatable by any who attempt them, it is simply the way it is.

That's all well and dandy, but you need multiple occurrences. Science falls on its face in the case of individual instances. That you can't really deny. Well, yeah, you might...

The value of believing in something for no reason, because quite frankly if you had a reason (evidence) then it would no longer be faith. I am not trying to stress differences between our views, I was generally curious as to what value you find in faith, a question you have yet to answer and instead dodged. If you have no wish to answer my questions and further my understanding of your position, why do you respond to my posts? The only reason it is vague is because you choose it to be, so, I will reiterate, what is the value of believing in something without any proof or evidence?

Evidence for faith does exist. You are incorrect to deny this. Nothing is proven. Faith is like any other form of perception.