[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Faith isnt something you have, its something you do.....its a journey of the mind.

Uh, faith is something you have. You have a belief, you do not do a belief, though, of course, you may act on your beliefs. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I'm certainly not going to wait on science to catch up to where im at on a "spiritual" level because that would put a hault on my personal journey. I'm doing what my brain was designed to do: Think.

Thinking is great and no one is saying imagination is useless (you may not believe faith = imagination, but some people incorrectly do), the issue is not with thinking or trying to contemplate the world around you, the problem comes about when you do this, come up with an idea, and then accept it as fact without any evidence at all, simply because you "think" it is right. Granted, you could indeed be right. The ancient Greeks did come up with the idea of atoms long before we could ever "see" them, just as an example. Should they, because they thought it was a good idea, believe it with all of their being even though they could not gather any evidence to support it? That is faith, believing in something without any proof. My whole position is, why believe in something when there is no proof? You can contemplate it, you can try and make it work, you can look for the evidence, why skip those steps and run head first into total belief?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I understand that I am nothing more than bits and pieces of the Universe itself, put together in such a way that the Universe has actually become alive. I am not seperate from the Universe, I am completely one with it. Everything within me: My heart, my lungs, my blood, my brain, and most importantly....my mind, it all came from the Universe.

This is why I believe the mind can reveal things that science cannot, and that there are some answers to some very big questions that lie within the mind itself...not in the science lab.

So, because we live in the Universe our minds must have some mystical connection to it that eludes all of our attempts to scrutinize it but will give us answers to big questions that we ponder simply because we ponder them?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Oh, so that argument you just made isn't based on your perception and yours alone? Let's be fair here. Even if you are a skeptic of faith, you cannot deny that your perception counts for no more than my own. It is because I understand this mutually-enforced principle underlying humanity that I do not wish to argue with you. I hope you will forgive me.

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Sure, you're referring to "2 + 2" as a certain, precisely defined concept but it only matters to the person who views life through a mathematical lens. If I'm not a rocket scientist, I really don't need the technical and limiting structures. Simpler is better, you know what I mean? It's just a bit smoother, but hey, if you like complexity, I don't blame you. Complex things are beautiful.

Sure, when I do my taxes I use conventional math. I still inhabit this world, you know? You got me, yes math is necessary, but math is for me only further validation that there are many ways to understand the Universal Truth of Existence.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Hey, listen to yourself. Who are you to imply that everyone, like you, perceives spiritual experiences to be dreams and fantasies stemming from deep within the mind? If that is truly your view, I must state that, in my humble perception, you have closed your mind off to other perceptions on the issue (which perhaps isn't an issue then...).

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him bringing me presents every Christmas?

Our minds are not perfect things that only think up things that are proper and true. Mental institutions are filled with people who believe they are Napoleon. What the "people of faith" are essential saying is, if they believe it, it is true. Since that is the case, I believe you owe me 2 million dollars, I do accept all major credit cards... Oh, yeah, but that matter of faith is obviously untrue, right?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Liquidswords, if they are meaningless, we wouldn't be in this discussion.

I do believe there is someone on this board by the name of Liquidswords, but that person is not me. Is it simply a misunderstanding (as in, misreading my nick) or a subtle form of mockery?

Touche, it is not meaningless. It is frightening. People make decisions that effect me (and everyone else) in this world based upon nothing more than a personal flight of fancy.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Explained my reasoning for that up above.

The scientific method has done the best job it can of removing personal perception from the equation. It is not my personal perception that repeatable experiments are repeatable by any who attempt them, it is simply the way it is.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I'm sorry that you feel you have a job here. I'm certainly not hiring.

lol, it is a figure of speech.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

The value of faith depends on the person's life experiences, hopes, fears, imagination, oneness, etc. You can't talk vaguely like that. That's what's known as a level four question, used merely to stress differences between our views rather than understanding that we both value the same thing: life.

The value of believing in something for no reason, because quite frankly if you had a reason (evidence) then it would no longer be faith. I am not trying to stress differences between our views, I was generally curious as to what value you find in faith, a question you have yet to answer and instead dodged. If you have no wish to answer my questions and further my understanding of your position, why do you respond to my posts? The only reason it is vague is because you choose it to be, so, I will reiterate, what is the value of believing in something without any proof or evidence?